Thinking of experimenting with ditching the no sweets rule.

phosphorus · Post by **phosphorus** » Sat May 21, 2016 2:17 pm

I don't intend to encourage anyone else to do this, but I am thinking of ditching "no sweets." I wonder if anyone else has decided to drop one of the three cardinal No-S rules ----- not because "It's too hard!" but because it seems to cause more problems than it solves, which is what I am looking at.

Here is the thing -- I don't really have much of a sweet tooth and I habitually avoid and moderate sweets most of the time anyway. I don't make desserts at home and only get them when I am out on a date with my husband -- and we're very likely to split one. I really think that the rules of "no seconds and no snacks" -- i.e., a dessert would have to fit on a plate with a meal -- would naturally prevent me from eating too much sweet. It has just never been a problem for me.

But what I have discovered is that since starting no S I suddenly feel *compelled* to eat sweets on the weekends because OMG WHAT IF I WANT ONE LATER THIS IS MY ONLY CHANCE. I prefer eggs and toast for breakfast but I find myself thinking "I must have pancakes and syrup today even if I don't want it, because it is Saturday!" I must not turn down an offer of chocolate! I must eat the whole piece of pie!"

I am much more likely to abuse saltine crackers (maybe that should be my third no S, seriously)

Any thoughts on this issue? Has anyone else experimented with ditching an S and then decided it was a mistake?

cedar · Post by **cedar** » Sun May 22, 2016 12:18 am

Hi phosphorus..I've also been thinking about this, I want to have clear boundaries though...so I'm thinking about "S events" rather than s days. I have found that during the week..especially socially..I've declined some beautiful 'sweet moments' shared with others that would have been enjoyable and appropriate, but then come s days I'm just having sweets for the sake of it and it doesn't feel 'special'. I am hesitant because I feel as though my habit is strong and it feels 'wrong/strange' to have sweets during the week..I don't want to undo my hard work but I really dislike the 'gotta have it while I can' habit I seem to have acquired..some things to think about for me because while I was one to be able to have a piece of chocolate after a meal and didn't class myself as a sweet tooth..I was getting into the habit of finishing each meal with a something sweet. I think I still need a 'rule' or boundary so things don't get murky and washy washy...
Good luck !

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Mon May 23, 2016 12:36 am

I found this kind of binging/abusing sweets on S days happened more when I was newer to the program. While I occasionally overdo now, it's not nearly as often as I did in the beginning. I think it's all part of the process.

One thing that helped me was to think about that S day ahead of time. Instead of thinking, "I have to load up on sweets, it's my only chance...," plan the sweet you'd really like to have. I mean, why have pancakes, just because you can, if you don't really want them, right?

One of my favorite treats is to get a specialty coffee. Often I look forward to that all week. I didn't end up getting one this week though, even though I was looking forward to it all week--we had ice cream in the house, plus my son is away and I decided to bake cookies to send to him. And I realized that even though I planned my treat and usually enjoy it, I didn't want that AND the other treats we had around--and I ended up making a conscious choice.

I didn't used to be able to do that. I'd have done it all and more, LOL! But now I realize--it's okay. If I don't have it this week, I'll have it next. I've even found myself able to say--I've tasted brownies before. Love brownies. I'll taste them again too. So, since I'm not really hungry for one now, I can pass. It's okay.

In the past, I'd have never done that, but it's not as big of a deal now. I actually find some things to have too much sugar for me now--and again, that never happened in the past.

So...for me, what you describe is just part of the process and did wane for me.

HOWEVER--depending on how often you go out with your husband, there are options on how to handle it. I allow two S days per month, so if you and your hubby go out twice a month, use your S days then.

You could also have a "going out mod," where you say, "when we go out, I'll follow the one-plate rule but allow a dessert that hubby and I split to be part of my plate." Again, if it's only a couple of times a month, probably no big deal. If it's weekly or more, you may need to try it and see if it throws you off from your goals (either your goals of being able to stay on habit the rest of the time, and/or weight-loss goals.)

Another possible way to deal with it, again if it's weekly--would be to consider switching one of your S days to that date night. My S days are permanently Friday and Sunday because that works with the things going on in my life.

Anyway, just some thoughts!

phosphorus · Post by **phosphorus** » Mon May 23, 2016 1:05 am

You could also have a "going out mod," where you say, "when we go out, I'll follow the one-plate rule but allow a dessert that hubby and I split to be part of my plate." Again, if it's only a couple of times a month, probably no big deal. If it's weekly or more, you may need to try it and see if it throws you off from your goals (either your goals of being able to stay on habit the rest of the time, and/or weight-loss goals.)

Hm, I think I see what you are getting at. It hadn't even occurred to me that I could have a mod that was tailored so narrowly.

I was thinking that maybe what I really would like to do is define "sweet" so that items which are eithr homemade for me with love, or chef-crafted from real food, count as N, but have to be part of my plate -- which controls the portion size. I don't get offered those items every day (maybe on average once a week) and I hardly ever make sweets myself.

The kind of stuff that I want to say no to most of the time is packaged cookies, super-sweet cereal, chocolate chips out of the bag, candy bars, ice cream, soda -- junk sweets. I think those things can still be an S treat on S days; I had a fountain Coke today and enjoyed it very much! But these are the things I want to be in the habit of avoiding.

I was just contemplating long-term life, imagining a life in the future in which
I was totally satisfied with my eating behaviors, and I realized that I don't *want* to say no if I have the good luck of someone offering me a piece of freshly baked pie on a Monday afternoon. I want to say, "Sure, I would love to have a small piece with dinner!" If people offered me really nice desserts all the time, I could easily say, "I will only eat the ones on the weekends." But unfortunately they are offered to me randomly and not usually on weekends. I want to say "yes, a little piece would be great!" for the rest of my life, not "no, it's Tuesday" for the rest of my life.

On the other hand, I *do* want to say "no thank you" most of the time to packaged sweet junky food and candy. I honestly don't like it that much, but I have been known to eat it if it is around. I also can see having a rule that I don't get to get around the rule by making the sweet myself, lest I suddenly take up cookie-making. I don't THINK I would do this, but it could be a slippery slope.

Maybe my mod will be "No Stranger-Synthesized or Selfie Sweets."

Bullisaba · Post by **Bullisaba** » Mon May 23, 2016 2:30 am

Lol at the saltines... I can relate. If I open a packet of salty crackers I think about eating them until they are gone. I am ok until the packet is open

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Mon May 23, 2016 5:47 am

phosphorus wrote: I was thinking that maybe what I really would like to do is define "sweet" so that items which are eithr homemade for me with love, or chef-crafted from real food, count as N, but have to be part of my plate -- which controls the portion size. I don't get offered those items every day (maybe on average once a week) and I hardly ever make sweets myself.

In that case, I think you probably won't know until you try it, if it will work well for you or if it will throw you off. I tend to have regular, once a week non-S day situations where home-made treats are offered, and occasional other random days too--so it has to be pretty special for me to decide to have some and either turn my day into a special day or take a red day for it. For me, the practice of having to make that decision is helpful (one, it makes me more conscious of when I'm having something extra, even if it's just a little--I'm not thinking it's normal, I'm thinking it's special. Two, I know by looking at my habitcal when I've had mods to my regular habits, and if my weight loss isn't happening, I can easily know why instead of wondering. Three, I don't have to remember on Thursday that I had a special treat on Monday but I forgot when I was offered a special treat on Thursday...because when I go to my calendar, it's marked as either yellow or red.)

I take up to 2 additional special days per month, and then I mark any other days I make exceptions as red days. It's helpful information to me. I had 3 red days in March, and 3 red days in April. March I still lost 2 lbs. (fairly normal for me), but in April I only lost 1 lb. Could be a fluke, but it's possible that the extra red days in those two months caught up to me. One month it was due to a vacation, and the other due to my mom visiting--so they were worth it. What I find helpful is that I know what's going on though. And over time, I can evaluate whether I need to tighten up in some way.

So...I guess I would say that whatever you do, have a way of being able to know what you chose to do, so that later you can assess the impact of your mod. Does that make sense?

kaalii · Post by **kaalii** » Mon May 23, 2016 7:17 am

phosphorus wrote: But what I have discovered is that since starting no S I suddenly feel *compelled* to eat sweets on the weekends because OMG WHAT IF I WANT ONE LATER THIS IS MY ONLY CHANCE.

it sounds like my thinking about the cigarettes, which im addicted to... lots of fear...
i go many hours in a day without even thinking about having one (at work, for example, i dont even have them on me when going to work, although there im allowed to take a ciggie break if i want to... but i dont...)...
however. before entering a train or aeroplane - i have to make sure to smoke one just before... out of fear of feeling being deprived... probably because i know i am absolutely not allowed to do it and there are no appropriate places to do it there...

so... if you think you are already benefitting immensely from no seconds and no snacks... that it is giving you already so much - i think making a mod with sweets is fine...
and who knows - maybe in time you will see you dont need it any more...
just maybe make sure to keep checking in here occasionally in order to realise in time if you feel you have been thrown off the tracks completely... and whether it is due to your sweets...

all the best!

phosphorus · Post by **phosphorus** » Mon May 23, 2016 2:19 pm

Thanks for the food for thought. So -- I'm reading that it's key that it has to be super clear what I mean so no fudging. Can I tell right away what thing is a Synthesized Sweet and thus an S, or will I be able to fool myself into eating Oreos? We shall see.

I completely agree that Reinhard's original "no sweets" rule is clearer, although it's not the clearest of the three -- it seems that everybody has to decide what "no sweets" means for themselves, depending on what gives them trouble or not. I like that Reinhard writes "If you're not sure, then it's not a sweet." One of the best things about No-s is how generous it can be -- strict adherence but lines clearly drawn.

Well, I will experiment this week.

Jen1974 · Post by **Jen1974** » Mon May 23, 2016 3:01 pm

Its funny, but I'm sometimes hesitant to talk about mods at all because I feel like they are a bit taboo (: Especially a mod to one of the 3 main rules, but sweets of the 3 is the one that I don't don't think everyone needs. Sweets weren't my problem. When a sweet sounds good I'll plan to have it over the weekend. I don't feel the need to force a sweet on the weekend though because my definiation of when I can take an S event for is much more relaxed than others.

I thought it would be silly to create a restriction for a problem I didn't have. Too many restrictions on eating is really what got me here so only being strict for the things that cause me problems & being less restrictive for things that don't seem to help me be more successful at following the plan. No seconds is my strictest restriction. I always decide on how much to have before I start & then that is it. Even on S days. I don't eat anything just because it's an S day, even on the weekends. It always has to be something I really want. But during the week I can take an S event for things that come up sometimes & are special. It doesn't have to be a holiday or birthday. It can be date night or dinner out or visiting with a friend. The key is that it has to be something I REALLY want. Something that if I skip I will start to feel deprived which for me always ends badly. I can turn down most treats during the week. I'd say for every 10 things I'm faced with, 1 will be something that to me is really worth taking the splurge on.

I would be damaging my relationship with sweets if I ate something on the weekend that I didn't want & skipped something during the week that I really wanted & that would be silly. If it's not broke, don't fix it LOL!!

People wonder about adding dark chocolate to the plan for them. I've eaten dark chocolate as a part of my meals in the past & lost weight while doing it. It's a little silly that if you like having potato chips with lunch you can do that on No S, but if you want to replace those chips with dark chocolate, you can't. You shouldn't have to be miserable on a diet. You have to give up a lot to lose weight, so why make it harder by giving up things that aren't problems.

I'm not saying the No Sweet rule isn't imporant. If your problem is sweets you need to be strict with No sweets, if your problem is snacks, you need to be strict with no snacks, & if your problem is is seconds you need to be strict with no seconds!! The key is to make the plan work for you. Everyone is different & has different struggles. I have to be more careful on S days than most but that's okay, others would feel too deprived even thinking of No S on an S day & that's okay too. I think that the most important thing is doing what works for you.

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Tue May 31, 2016 2:04 pm

I've seen many people regret trying to have sweets more often, though there have been exceptions, and you'll probably hear more from them. I suspect that those who are successful with it fit a little more into your category. Over the years of watching here, I'd say that those who were already very attached to sweets and feel it makes them go way overboard on weekends, who think they will solve that by having a little each day end up eating a lot more than a little each day, and just go back to Vanilla. They were already people who could overdo sweets.

It's not that it's taboo to have mods. We have a whole mod thread in the All Time top discussions thread! It's that so many people make their mods too early and without really understanding their own motivations nor the benefits of clarity (some might say rigidity). You sound like someone who sees yourself more clearly. And we've seen so many people try, fail, and report they wish they had stuck to Vanilla. But that may be what it takes to get real commitment. In that case, it is productive suffering!

In any case, why not try it out for June, and see what you think? But please give it at least that long before you report that the problem is solved. Irrational impulses towards food can go and come in waves over time, a lot longer than a month, but it can be a lot to ask to wait six months to see if the verdict really holds!

jackn · Post by **jackn** » Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:46 pm

Jen1974 wrote:It's a little silly that if you like having potato chips with lunch you can do that on No S, but if you want to replace those chips with dark chocolate, you can't. You shouldn't have to be miserable on a diet.

The key is to make the plan work for you. Everyone is different & has different struggles... I think that the most important thing is doing what works for you.

I so agree, Jen, and also about eating what you like most.

As to the issue raised by Phosphorus, I think it's great that you're soliciting input, but I agree with the opinion often voiced in this thread that it's your path to work out.
Trial and error.

Personally, I can only say that I stick to real food in general, namely only food from field and meadow.
But I'll freely have a treat or junk food if desire rises, always keeping to meal size, as you say, never on top of the meal.

Also, I like saying 'yes' to all offers of food.
This means I'll have quite infrequent 'snacks' or 'sweets', and, not rarely, things I don't necessarily appreciate.
But I always appreciate the sharing and the showing of appreciation to others' offers.
Might be carrying the social preference too far, but it's my preference at this point.

Good luck to us all.

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:19 pm

I suggest also to consider what constitutes being miserable. Am I really miserable if I don't get x, y, or z? Am I making it a bigger deal than it needs to be, either way? Those are personal answers, too. I've cut out just about all of my between-meal mochas and lattes. At one point, I felt that would make me feel miserable to give them up, and then, it probably would have (but I'll never know). Now, the meal gaps with no food to process is more important to me. It isn't a breeze every day, but it's worth it now.

But whatever you decide, I recommend being definitive about it for a period of time and then reflect.

And enjoy EVERY bite.

lpearlmom · Post by **lpearlmom** » Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:53 am

I didn't read all the responses but I think Jen and Jack had excellent points. I'm not a big sweets person either and so have a very loose definition of sweets. Like I'll have a piece of zucchini bread with chocolate chips for breakfast and not sweat it too much.

For me the most important rule for me is no snacking because that's my weakness. So as long as something is contained on one plate per meal I don't actually see a problem with adding sweets as long as that's not an issue for you. I think for some ppl it could cause them to want to continue to eat sweets and thus overeat. Or they might have an overriding amount of sweets on each plate and not enough of more nutritional meal. But clearly this would not be the case for you.

I think you have a great point about feeling obligated to eat sweets on the weekend but then missing out on more enjoyable social moments during the week. I understand how valuable those date nights are so you should enjoy them!

We are all so different and I think the most important thing is to keep with the spirit of NoS which is moderation and clear boundaries to build habits which support moderation. How you get there is up to you. Above all eating should be a source of pleasure for us.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

Linda

LifeisaBlessing · Post by **LifeisaBlessing** » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:15 pm

lpearlmom wrote:We are all so different and I think the most important thing is to keep with the spirit of NoS which is moderation and clear boundaries to build habits which support moderation. How you get there is up to you. Above all eating should be a source of pleasure for us.

I was inspired to come out of years of lurkdom by these wise words!

So excited to be a part of the NoS community!

I've been lurking here for about 10 years, and have tried numerous diets over the course of that time. Finally found success applying a modified form of NoS, which I will share in another thread, but just wanted to say that this post of Linda's is truly a wonderful description of the NoS diet.

Looking forward to getting to know everyone!

lpearlmom · Post by **lpearlmom** » Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:39 pm

Yay--lifeisablessing! So thrilled my post could help you and really happy you came out of lurkdom!

I look forward to hearing about your journey especially if you've found a way to tweak NoS that works for you. I imagine it could be really helpful to those that are finding vanilla nos to be frustrating for one reason or another.

The whole theory behind NoS is wonderful but let's face it, it's not some scientifically proven equation that will fall apart if one piece of the equation is not exact. It's a lot of good common sense and mostly about habits and moderation which is open to interpretation imo. Bottom line if it works, it works.

Anyway welcome & look forward to your posts!

Linda

LifeisaBlessing · Post by **LifeisaBlessing** » Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:53 pm

Thank you for the very warm welcome, lpearlmom!

Everyday Systems

Thinking of experimenting with ditching the no sweets rule.

Thinking of experimenting with ditching the no sweets rule.

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