frustrated!!!!!!! Please help!!!!!

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kmoreland7118
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frustrated!!!!!!! Please help!!!!!

Post by kmoreland7118 » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:06 pm

I have never participated in a forum before. I have been reading others comments for several weeks but had not participated yet. Here it goes...

I had been attempting the No S Diet for 3 to 4 weeks and then gave up because I did not see any difference, not even a half a pound loss. I must be doing something wrong. But I do not know what? I am now trying again I am on my 3rd week and I have gained 1.5 pounds instead of losing. During those three weeks I did not have ANY failure days until today when I realized that I have gained weight. On the weekend, I do eat snacks, sweets and seconds but I am allowed. For example, last weekend I had a small popcorn when I went to the movies on Sat. and on Sunday I has a piece of cake because it was my birthday. I do not think that sounds that bad. I have read the book so I feel I understand it. I am so frustrated because if I could just see the scale going in the right direction if only slightly then I would feel better.

I have been diagnosed with hypothyroid but do take medication daily. Also, I have a sluggish digestive tract but try to include a lot of fiber in my diet to help.

Any suggestions or help that you could give me would be so appreciated!!!
Thanks for listening

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gratefuldeb67
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Post by gratefuldeb67 » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:06 pm

Hi and welcome :)

Wow that does sound really frustrating!
But congratulations on going for 4 weeks without failures!
That's awesome!!
And your S days don't sound bad at all, in fact I'd say they are very moderate so far.

I'd say see if adding in exercise will help?? Not sure if you are doing some already?
Also, do you eat really large portions??
Having hypothyroidism definitely sounds like a culprit here.
I wonder if the medication also plays into it, as I know there are many meds that make people gain weight or make it very hard to lose.

Anyway. Don't give up hope!
You will figure out what is causing this.
The fact that you have had no failures for four weeks is really great!
NoS is not a traditional crash diet though, so just keep that in mind and be patient!
Good luck :)

Peace and Love

8) Deb
There is no Wisdom greater than Kindness

Joelle
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Post by Joelle » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:12 pm

Hey Kmoreland,
I have only been doing this a fairly short time, but my best suggestion is to just stick with it. I don't know what kind of dieting history you have, but a lot of us tend to go overboard filling our three plates at first. It takes a while to find the amount that will carry you to the next meal without feeling overly full or too hungry. Some people eventually tweak their plates to include more fruits and veggies, leaving less room for higher calorie food, but for me it just took a while to trust myself and the plan. Keep reading the book and the boards. There's lots of support to be found. Best of luck to you.
-Joelle

gudrun
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Post by gudrun » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:54 am

Hi
Maybe you could try also to drink more water (not sure if you do already) but Water helps losing..

Good luck and hope you will stick with the program.

Gudrún

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reinhard
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Post by reinhard » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:17 pm

Dear kmoreland7118,

Sorry you're not seeing better results -- but thank you for taking the plunge and posting for the first time ever! I hope you'll find that something here will have made that risk and effort worth while.

First off, the first few weeks tend not to bring striking results -- for the simple reason that people tend to (and should) eat VERY full plates at first to keep from breaking down and snacking between meals. Once this habit is established, firsts will gradually get smaller, because you get a sense as to how much it really takes to see you through to the next meal without excessive hunger, and would rather not be confronted by (or confront others with) the sight of such enormous plates.

While not losing after three weeks is frustrating, I don't think 1.5 pounds is meaningful. Such a small difference, especially if it's based on a single measurement, could be the result of many things besides fat gain. And even if it is "real," I'm confident that if you give these habits time you'll be satisfied with the results. These are habits for months, years, a lifetime -- not days or weeks.

It could be that you have some special issues that will make No-s harder... but I'd be hesitant to jump to conclusions. A month is the bare minimum amount of time to assess results for moderate behavior changes. I know it's hard to be this patient... but if you're eating less, and no-s should make it obvious whether you are, it makes logical sense that eventually that will translate into weighing less. There's no magic here, it doesn't require blind faith. Just patience. And at least you'll be very comfortable while you're waiting for results -- meal based eating, with treats allowed and encouraged on S-days, is a very pleasant way to eat.

If you don't think you can manage this level of patience and want to take some additional proactive steps, the first thing I'd recommend is adding moderate exercise if you're not doing that already. It's a good idea in any case, even if you're losing like crazy. It doesn't take much -- just 14 or so minutes every N-day :-).

Best of luck and hope something here gives you the encouragement you need,

Reinhard

wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:26 pm

I don't think you're doing anything wrong, but I think you might have some circumstances which make weight loss more difficult. I'm assuming you're female -- that in itself can make weight loss slower. You have hypothyroid. Even on medication, it can be hard for someone with hypothyroid to lose weight. Are you on any other medications? They can encourage weight gain or slow weight loss. You also don't mention how much weight you have to lose. The less you have to lose, the harder it is to lose it.

One thing you don't mention is exercise. Jack La Lanne has said that "Exercise is king, diet is queen and together they form a kingdom." Exercise is equally as important as diet -- maybe more so. You don't have to join a gym if you don't want to (there's nothing in the world that could make me join a gym). All you need to do is something you enjoy and just move more in the course of a day. From personal experience I can tell you that makes a huge amount of difference.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

kmoreland7118
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Post by kmoreland7118 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:37 pm

First of all, Thank you everyone for your responses. It really does help soooo much. Some of you suggested exercise because I did not mention that. I do already exercise and switch between swimming laps or walking in my neighborhood (about 2miles) at least 3 to 4 times a week. I would think that would be considered moderate exercise wouldn't it? I do not take any other meds except the thyroid medication.

I do think as Reinhard and many of you said I needed to give it more time. I am going to give it my best for a minimum of 3 months. Also, I am going to resist the urge to weigh myself weekly and only do it biweekly or monthly. Maybe then I will not become frustrated as easily when I do not see the results I expect.

Today I had an all day meeting for school ( I am a teacher). There was candy (chocolate!!!) on the table in front of me and cheesecake for dessert after lunch. It was very difficult but I ate my one plate for lunch and resisted the urge to ATTACK the sweets. I even congratulated myself when I finally got in my car at the end of the day!! Sounds wierd huh! But it felt good to say something good to myself instead of bad!

I do drink a lot of iced tea and diet coke. Can caffeine be bad when trying to lose weight????

I will be having a blood test tomorrow to see if my thyroid levels are on target. If not, the medication dosage will be adjusted and that my help too.

Thanks again everyone for your encouagement. It really helps and I appreciate it.

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gratefuldeb67
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Post by gratefuldeb67 » Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:59 am

Wow! I congratulate you for not having chocolate and cheesecake too!!!
Man that sounds so tempting!
And about congratulating yourself about it later, thats not weird to do that at all :)
I avoided buying some sweets today which were staring me in the face, and talked myself out of it, and then also told myself I was proud of myself after.
LOL..
It's funny, people talk to themselves all the time, but usually they say bad things.
But nobody thinks strangely of that.
Keep cheering yourself on!
Good plan on staying off the scale for a little longer period of time and good luck being patient. It will pay off :)
Peace and Love
Debs
There is no Wisdom greater than Kindness

irish
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Post by irish » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:06 pm

We all sympathize with your weight gain. The poster, blueskighs, has some very insiteful things to say. Her blog is http://www.nosdiet.blogspot.com/ She's very encouraging and had helped a lot of us. KCCC'c postings are very helpful, too. You'll find LOTS of support here, one of the best things about No S.
Good luck.

Dawn
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Post by Dawn » Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:30 pm

Hmmm this sounds familiar! My first 10 weeks I didn't lose an ounce. I wanted to quit too but at the same time I was loving the no guilt and not having the inner dialog all day long about what I should or shouldn't do. No-S rules are pretty basic, you just do them, not much to think about and my brain was very happy. But the weight wasn't moving, but to be honest not gaining was great, it told me I was onto something and I just needed to keep doing what I was doing only more of it.

I went for an across the board plan. I cut back a bit on my 3 plates, I did by best to keep S-days sane (they are my biggest problem still and I suspect will always be). I exercised just a bit more. Once I started doing these things the weight finally started to go down. 6 months later I am down nearly 10 pounds, that is 1/2 way to my goal. Since I don't have a lot to lose I did expect it to go slow but nothing at 10 weeks??? I too was confused and frustrated. But it is pretty simple, calories in vs. calories used. I know with some meds it makes it harder, but still it's the same principle.

I honestly thought I was doing all I could do, but after I made some changes I realized that they were easier than I thought they would be. I guess I thought since I was doing so much better than before No-S, that alone would be good enough. Well, it is for some people, but not for me. I have always had a super slow metabolism and I swear I can maintain my weight on anything between 1200 and 1700 calories a day. But if I made these changes too soon in the plan I don’t know if I could have done it, I think I needed some time under my belt before I was able to push myself this little bit more. It’s important that any changes you make be small enough that you hardly notice them at all. Can’t get tired of something that you don’t even notice right? But if across the board is too much at one time, then take baby steps and do only one thing for a few weeks and then add as you go. Don’t rush yourself, it won’t help, it only burns you out.

Good luck.
Dawn

Betty
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Post by Betty » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:27 pm

Dawn,

This was a really inspiring post as I seem to be in the same boat. I've been no-Sing for a couple of months and have lost a total of 1 lb. But I love the no S lifestyle and just don't want to jepordise that. I would really like to hear more about how you went about making changes. What changes did you make first? What were your s days like before and after? What were your meals like before and after? What do you mean by 'exercised just a bit more?"

Thanks,

Betty
Be your own best friend and advocate. Be gentle and kind to yourself. Your weight is not the problem.

Before: 140
During: 140 (again!)

kccc
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Post by kccc » Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:53 pm

Betty, I think Dawn's story is one of the most instructive I've heard. And there was someone else as well, who didn't lose immediately but then did... CrazyCatLady, maybe? (No memory, sorry.)

kmoreland7118, I think your decision to just stick with it for 3 months and see where it takes you is a great one. There is often a "rebound" effect at first, especially for dieters, as people shovel in all the formerly-forbidden foods at mealtime. ("I can have CHEESE, ohmygosh! And... and... and...!") That usually fades with time.

Also, over time, you see the range of normal variation in weight. I can weigh 3 pounds different in a day! We tend to have two "schools" on the scale here - the people who don't weigh often, so any losses show up, and the people who track at a micro-level, so they can get used to the effects of daily variation. (See Rose and trytrytry for great examples of the latter - VERY encouraging if you've had a scale "blip.") And pay attention to other metrics - inches, how your clothes fit, energy levels, growing peace of mind (a big one for me), etc.

If you haven't lost after 3 months on target, then consider tweaking. By then, the standard habits should be pretty solid, and you can make additional changes that still meet the "I can live with this long-term" requirement.

Best wishes!

PS - Do you drink sweet iced tea? I ask because I'm from the south, and the tea here can be worse than regular soda in terms of being a "sweet." Just a random thought from reading your post, which may not apply.

Dawn
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Post by Dawn » Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:53 pm

In response to Betty (or other newbies that are stuck) here is what I did to get the pounds moving.

Warning - this is going to be long!!!

Let me start my saying that I really thought I was doing great with my 3 plates. No overloading, no especially high cal foods. Meals were never my problem, it's what happened in between them. So no surprise that No-S sounded so great to me. But after 10 weeks of doing "great" but not losing any weight I had to step up and take responsibility, after all it's calories in Vs. calories used, so I needed to cut back and move more. After 10 weeks I was ready to go to this next level, before that I don't know if I could have. Looking back I now realize that it's a process and I was right where I needed to be, and so might a lot of you, so don't look at it as a failure but a part of the process that you can't skip over.

OK, so I started by assessing my 3 meals and determined where I could make the littlest changes with the biggest impact. I am big on 1/2-ing things, that way you get what you want only less of it.

Breakfast was: Bowl of cereal, fruit, toast, coffee.
Breakfast now: Bowl of cereal that has less cal and more fiber, cut fruit in 1/2 and save for lunch, lower cal, higher fiber toast, measure rather than guess on cream in coffee.

This cut about 150 calories from breakfast without it feeling like it at all.

Lunch was: Sandwich, fruit, chips or crackers
Lunch now: 1/2 sandwich or full with 1/2 of the meat, 1/2 of fruit left over from breakfast, 1/4 cup cottage cheese and raw veggies to put it on

This cut about 150 calories from lunch too.

Dinner was: What ever the fam was having, but smaller portion
Dinner now: Even small portions of some food is too many calories for me, so on Non S days I try to keep to salads, lots of steamed veggies, grilled chicken breast, grilled fish etc. - whatever I can come up with that is around 500 calories total.

Not sure what that cut, but I know it's significant.

Exercise was: 3 mile hikes 5 days a week
Exercise now: Realized the 5 days was probably more like 3 to 4, so I pushed to make it 4 days if at all possible, which it usually is. Also got back into my old habit of parking far from store front and little things like that.

Not sure how all that adds up, but I do know the pounds are moving, super slow, but the scale going down at any rate while I don't even have to diet is amazing.


S days were: Just too much of everything, not a binge, but each meal would be things I wouldn't normally eat, and then there would be snacks, dessert and cocktails.
S days now: Gotta say this is where my day doesn't always end up like I planned. But the plan is to have my 3 meals -skipping always, and I mean always, ends up being a mistake. The meals are usually the same as Non S days because they are good and I do enjoy them. I try not to snack, but I will try a bite or two of something, I find I don't need the whole thing, a bite still gives me that "rewarding myself" feeling that I need on S days. I always plan a good dessert, something that is so decadent that a small serving satisfies me. I keep to the glass ceiling on the booze, which is easy if I don't start too early. Not that I have a drinking problem, but when it's 110 degrees outside and we are hanging out in the pool, you'd be surprised at how many ice cold beers can go down in record time.

So there ya go Betty (and others), hope this gives you an idea on how you can make just the right about of adjustments so that the weight does start to come off.

One last thing before I bore you all to sleep. It has taken me 6 months to realize that my goal isn't really to weight X amount of pounds by X date. My new goal is to not even know how much I weigh because I am happy with how I look, how I feel, and what I am doing to look and feel this way!!!

Best of luck! You can do it, the how you do it is up to you.
Dawn

connorcream
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Post by connorcream » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:56 pm

Dawn,
Thank you so much for your detailed post.
connorcream (cc)
connorcream
5'8.5"
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10/6/2009
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Maintaining a year

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gratefuldeb67
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Post by gratefuldeb67 » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:42 pm

Wow Dawn, great post!!
All great advice!!
As for me, it took me a whole year to lose 17 lbs the first year I was on NoS, and that was with moderate exercise, but about a 75% success rate.

It's easy for people to get frustrated when they go from a traditional "crash" diet, to NoS, because they simply aren't really prepared for the slowness of it.
But most health professionals will tell you it is normal and healthy to lose weight slowly!
We just want it to be fast!
LOL :)
Then there are also those little plateaus, and occasional gains, and you just need to accept that they are part of the process towards your ultimate success in losing and then maintaining your weight loss.
When you accept that it will happen sometimes like this, it's much less frustrating (hopefully!)

Good luck to all!

8) Debs
There is no Wisdom greater than Kindness

CrazyCatLady
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Post by CrazyCatLady » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:15 am

Please don't give up on No S too soon. After all, at a minimum you will maintain your current weight and learn lots of useful new habits. More likely, you will find that over time, the weight will come down!
KCCC wrote: PS - Do you drink sweet iced tea? I ask because I'm from the south, and the tea here can be worse than regular soda in terms of being a "sweet."
I was kind of stalled in my weight loss. And was drinking McDonald's Sweet Tea several times per week. I tried to convince myself that it was a liquid rather than a sweet. Hello....SWEET tea?!?

But I really have made so many changes with no S...my diet was just horrible before. And finally, one Monday I woke up and said to myself that I just feel like I'm ready to let this excess weight go. Not "fight" to get rid of it, but just stop feeding and caring for all the excess weight. The first thing I stopped was McDonald's Sweet Tea. I still have occasional sweetened teas, but not the jumbo jug-o-sugar.

I also quit eating meals that were based on holding me over to the next meal. I just cut back on portions, figuring that if I got really hungry early, I would know to bump it up the next time I had that.

At the same time, my S days just kind of got less indulgent. What is really strange is that in the past 3 weeks I have had many many red days. But they were all pretty small slips (IMO). We had company, and on a Sunday I made homemade chocolate pudding from scratch. It didn't turn out that great, so on Monday I tweeked the recipe and made it again. It turned out much better, and I ate a bowl. One serving...like normal people do...it felt good!

My weight loss has been so weird. I gained 5 pounds initially. Now, in 7 months, I am down a total of 20 pounds. I lost the last five pounds in the last 3 weeks, with all the red days! LOL! But I am also eating less. Not so much due to major restricting, but just allowing myself to eat reasonable portions.

I have been watching some skinny people eat, and a friend who is pregnant. They have what I want. A healthy appetite, an enjoyment of their food, and freedom from constantly thinking and worrying about food.

phosphorus
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Post by phosphorus » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:10 pm

CrazyCatLady:
And finally, one Monday I woke up and said to myself that I just feel like I'm ready to let this excess weight go. Not "fight" to get rid of it, but just stop feeding and caring for all the excess weight. The first thing I stopped was McDonald's Sweet Tea. I still have occasional sweetened teas, but not the jumbo jug-o-sugar.

I also quit eating meals that were based on holding me over to the next meal. I just cut back on portions, figuring that if I got really hungry early, I would know to bump it up the next time I had that.
OMgosh, I could have written this myself.

I admit I wasn't doing NoS at the time -- I was doing calorie counting -- but I just woke up one morning and said "I'm ready to try being hungry between meals." All my previous dieting had been based on the belief that you shouldn't have to be hungry. And then it was like I woke up and realized that NORMAL PEOPLE GET HUNGRY. I realized that I have had this fear of getting hungry. I would always overeat at meals because it was like, I might never get to eat this food again!

This was a few months ago before I heard of NoS and so I decided to attack it a different way, by calorie counting, staying at a level that was low enough that I would be sure to get hungry, and pre-planning my snacks and carrying them with me so I knew I wouldn't have to "fear" getting hungry. It helped keep me from overeating at each meal to know that if I get hungry, I have a little bag of almonds or whatever, so I don't need to overdo it at this meal.

Now I am thinking about moving to NoS for maintenance. I still have 15 pounds to lose and I am not sick of calorie counting yet, so I will keep doing it for a while, but I will make a plan to transition to maintenance.

Betty
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Post by Betty » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:47 pm

Dawn,

Thanks for the info. Your post has inspired me to tighten up just a bit. I don't think I could possibly tweek all three meals at once, but I'm aiming for 100 cals less at lunch!

Kmoreland7118: if you hang in there, so will I. At some point this will start working for us :)

Betty
Be your own best friend and advocate. Be gentle and kind to yourself. Your weight is not the problem.

Before: 140
During: 140 (again!)

blueskighs
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Post by blueskighs » Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:35 pm

but just stop feeding and caring for all the excess weight
oooh CrazyCatLady, what a great way to say it!!!!!!! :D
My weight loss has been so weird. I gained 5 pounds initially. Now, in 7 months, I am down a total of 20 pounds. I lost the last five pounds in the last 3 weeks, with all the red days!
I think Dawn and CrazyCatLady's stories REALLY show us the POWER of just sticking with NO S ... I have decided (today :D ) that I love NO S because it is very self-correcting, when i read Dawn and CrazyCatLady's storys as well as others that stick with No S in the long run is that gradually over time they/we become ready to take another step. The reason I think this leads to permanent weight loss/solution is they are motivated by inner guidance and direct personal experience rather than EXPLICIT EXTERNAL INSTRUCTIONS which in the end are somewhat meaningless to us as the unique individuals that we are and thus unsustainabe in the long run ...

NO S works, as Reinhard said on another thread it is also POWERFUL BUT SLOW!

Blueskighs
www.nosdiet.blogspot.com Where I blog daily about my No S journey

funfuture
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Post by funfuture » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:43 am

It has taken me 6 months to realize that my goal isn't really to weight X amount of pounds by X date. My new goal is to not even know how much I weigh because I am happy with how I look, how I feel, and what I am doing to look and feel this way!!!
I can really relate to that - and the comment about feeding and caring for the excess weight...love it.

I've had a ghastly 10 days - totally red - but I now know from sticking to NoS for the last 9 months that my overeating triggers are stress and fatigue. NoS has given me the space around food to notice that as I"m monitoring my habits on a daily basis. If I'm spreading myself too thin and not getting regular, decent sleep, then my body craves sugar and caffeine to get me through. Not good.

I'm back on NoS today - and very relieved to be. It's comforting and sensible.

As the others who read regularly know, I lost quite a lot when I started but not so much over this winter (we are heading towards spring now down here). Nevertheless, my total loss (before this last week) was about 18 lbs. What I have learned (besides the need to get enough sleep!) is that:
- regular exercise makes me feel sooooo much better - healthy, stronger, more confident and my debilitating 3-day "stress headaches" have disappeared. I even tried ice-skating with my 7-year-old the last two weekends (first time on the ice for me in 39 years!). Not only was it enormous fun, but I wasn't afraid. I think the shugging and walking have made me fit enough to give me more confidence so I could have a go at it. DD wants to go every weekend now and that sounds good to me! Fun time together and fun exercise without having to think about it.
- I am looking better as I don't look as if I have been poured into my clothes. I am not as pasty and tired-looking as I was...
- I don't need more than 3 meals a day
- mindless overeating makes me feel more stressed and very uncomfortable - physically and mentally/emotionally.
- if I drink alcohol, it weakens my NoS resolve and I crave snack-type foods to absorb it (even 1 glass of wine...sigh). No drinking during the week for me and not much on weekends...
- that I prefer vegie-based meals to heavy meat-based meals (though we eat both - not too much of the latter).

I'm still noticing things about my eating habits - I could do with drinking less milk and having more water, etc.

The point is that NoS gives me the framework to see exactly what I am putting into my body and how I am treating myself - over time - and so I have the knowledge to make the corrections I need.

Am not too worried bout the failures - I always learn something from them. And a bit of rebellion now and then is ok. I just don't want to slip back into old habits.

Thanks from me too, Reinhard!

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winnie96
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Post by winnie96 » Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:19 pm

From Dawn's wonderful post: "I wanted to quit too but at the same time I was loving the no guilt and not having the inner dialog all day long about what I should or shouldn't do".

I've only been No-Sing for two days, but already I am loving the no guilt/no inner dialog thing -- very liberating! A whole new way of looking at things!

I lost 60 lbs on Weight Watchers almost 4 years ago, and have kept it off, but am struggling -- a constant battle. I'm hoping the WW good habits, coupled with the no-nonsense No-S plan will make things easier. (Still have that last 5 lbs to go, but with my new No-S outlook, am planning to have it take at least a year).

Two things that got me "unstuck" are:

(1) For some reason, I don't lose, and sometimes gain, when I am drinking diet soda on a regular basis. I switched to water and Lipton decaf tea (hot and iced). (And you don't have to boil the water to make iced tea. I just put a few teabags in a carafe with water and leave it in the refrigerator for an afternoon).

(2) I toss 1/2 cup of Fiber One cereal on my oatmeal and blueberries each morning and find that the 14 grams of fiber it provides really get my digestive system in gear.

Thanks everyone for the great tips and encouragement!

kmoreland7118
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Post by kmoreland7118 » Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:11 am

Thanks so much everyone for your posts. I am finding all the information so helpful. I hope to get that inner diagloue out of my head too. Unfortuanately, I have been negatively talking to myself for sooo long that it is hard to stop.

I am exercising more, trying not to go out of control on s days and will now try to cut down on the diet drinks, maybe only 1 a day.

I still have not seen any weight lost yet but hopefully will soon. The good news is I am not gaining. So maybe with a few changes I will start to see the scale moving in the right direction.

Thanks again for the support it is so helpful!!

kccc
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Post by kccc » Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:53 am

Not gaining IS good news. :)

Give yourself time, and cheer yourself on! Developing new habits is an accomplishment.

And over time, they will pay off. Right now, celebrate every day that you're "on habit." Those habits will add up over time, and small changes will get easier and easier.

This thread may help... it's an oldie at this point, but I find it a helpful way to think:

http://everydaysystems.com/bb/viewtopic ... highlight=

Best wishes!

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