I've done "No-S" on-and-off for 6 months. Finally decided this was the way to eat forever. On it for about 6 weeks now - keeping track of my green and red days. More green than red. But this still seems really hard for me. I spend Monday and Tuesday forcing myself to stick to the rules, barely make it to Friday, then break all the rules on the weekend. Then comes Monday to start all over again. It does become "habit" I guess, because it's clear when I am and am not to eat, but the desire to break the rules doesn't seem to be fading very quickly for me.
<sigh>
Just wondering WHEN this gets easier.........
Moderators: Soprano, automatedeating
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NoelFigart
- Posts: 1639
- Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:23 pm
- Location: Lebanon, NH
- Contact:
It'll come.
While I'm hardly labelling's biggest fan, I do mentally label myself. When I was going through some big temptation stages, I'd say, "Oh, I'm a person who doesn't snack" to myself. It helped internalize it for me.
While I'm hardly labelling's biggest fan, I do mentally label myself. When I was going through some big temptation stages, I'd say, "Oh, I'm a person who doesn't snack" to myself. It helped internalize it for me.
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My blog https://noelfigart.com/wordpress/ I talk about being a freelance writer, working out and cooking mostly. The language is not always drawing room fashion. Just sayin'.
My blog https://noelfigart.com/wordpress/ I talk about being a freelance writer, working out and cooking mostly. The language is not always drawing room fashion. Just sayin'.
I'll second both the above responses. I've been diligent about keeping my check-in thread and updating daily or almost daily. It can be as elaborate or as simple as you want. It's the accountability that matters and helps reinforce the habit.
And, like Noel, I've started to think of myself as someone who doesn't snack, doesn't eat after dinner, and doesn't eat sweets on weekends. Once this way of eating becomes an established habit it is so much easier than having to make decisions each day. Eating this way is just what I do. Now what I need to do is start incorporating those good N day habits into my weekends.
Keep at it, and it will get easier.
And, like Noel, I've started to think of myself as someone who doesn't snack, doesn't eat after dinner, and doesn't eat sweets on weekends. Once this way of eating becomes an established habit it is so much easier than having to make decisions each day. Eating this way is just what I do. Now what I need to do is start incorporating those good N day habits into my weekends.
Keep at it, and it will get easier.
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sophiasapientia
- Posts: 919
- Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:09 am
- Location: Michigan
Lots of wise words here.
I think, in addition to keeping a daily journal when I was building habit, one of the primary factors that helped me was to have a very strict definition of what constituted a Failure. Very rarely, I allow myself to test for seasoning when making a recipe but that is it. Beyond that, anything outside of my 3 N Day meals, qualifies as a failure and was/is marked at such. Otherwise, I think it is far too easy to delude ourselves into thinking that small nibbles/tastes/bites don't count or hurt. But they do count ... Not only in terms of the 100s of excess calories we can end up taking in without thinking about it but also because it makes it that much harder for No S to really take hold as a serious habit. Reinhard has some excellent podcasts on Strictness & Failure which are worth a listen.
Another factor that has helped me to build habit is to make sure that I am eating meals that I really enjoy -- even when I'm making healthy choices -- on both N Days and S Days. I've found that if I'm happy with my food choices, No S is far more enjoyable and I'm a lot less likely to feel resentful about the sweets, snacks and seconds that I'm not eating during the week. In this way, No S feels like a "way of eating" to me rather than a diet.
An important question to ask yourself is: Why am I white knuckling it on N Days? ... Is it a compliance issue? Are you hungry most of the time? Something else?
I think, in addition to keeping a daily journal when I was building habit, one of the primary factors that helped me was to have a very strict definition of what constituted a Failure. Very rarely, I allow myself to test for seasoning when making a recipe but that is it. Beyond that, anything outside of my 3 N Day meals, qualifies as a failure and was/is marked at such. Otherwise, I think it is far too easy to delude ourselves into thinking that small nibbles/tastes/bites don't count or hurt. But they do count ... Not only in terms of the 100s of excess calories we can end up taking in without thinking about it but also because it makes it that much harder for No S to really take hold as a serious habit. Reinhard has some excellent podcasts on Strictness & Failure which are worth a listen.
Another factor that has helped me to build habit is to make sure that I am eating meals that I really enjoy -- even when I'm making healthy choices -- on both N Days and S Days. I've found that if I'm happy with my food choices, No S is far more enjoyable and I'm a lot less likely to feel resentful about the sweets, snacks and seconds that I'm not eating during the week. In this way, No S feels like a "way of eating" to me rather than a diet.
An important question to ask yourself is: Why am I white knuckling it on N Days? ... Is it a compliance issue? Are you hungry most of the time? Something else?
Restarted No S (3rd times a charm!) January 2010 at 145 lbs
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leafy_greens
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:18 pm
Iowamom, can I make a suggestion? Actually, a couple.
1. N-day meal-planning:
List all the "N-compliant" foods you like. Not diet foods - anything that you would serve at a meal that is not sweet. Include favorites you haven't had in years because they're "fattening" or "bad" in some way.
Now, plan some N-day meals that are super-delicious. Make sure you have enough on your plate, too.
On Monday, be sure to serve meals you REALLY REALLY like. So much so that you look forward to them.
2. Diagnostics:
Approach the situation like a detective.
What exactly is hard for you? Do you have external food cues from some activity or area? (And if so, can you remove/avoid some of them?) Are you just flat starving because you're not eating enough? (And if so, do you need bigger meals, or perhaps some more satisfying foods?)
Develop some very, very specific descriptions of problem areas. Because that's the first step toward finding solutions.
Good luck!
1. N-day meal-planning:
List all the "N-compliant" foods you like. Not diet foods - anything that you would serve at a meal that is not sweet. Include favorites you haven't had in years because they're "fattening" or "bad" in some way.
Now, plan some N-day meals that are super-delicious. Make sure you have enough on your plate, too.
On Monday, be sure to serve meals you REALLY REALLY like. So much so that you look forward to them.
2. Diagnostics:
Approach the situation like a detective.
What exactly is hard for you? Do you have external food cues from some activity or area? (And if so, can you remove/avoid some of them?) Are you just flat starving because you're not eating enough? (And if so, do you need bigger meals, or perhaps some more satisfying foods?)Develop some very, very specific descriptions of problem areas. Because that's the first step toward finding solutions.
Good luck!
I agree that HabitCal is a big help at the beginning, and so is the daily check-in thread. I checked in practically every day at first, listing what I was eating and how I was doing. It makes you accountable to yourself, and it will be very helpful in the future when you need some inspiration and can see exactly what you were doing when things were going well or not so well.
And now I'm going to be a little bit of a hardass with you, so please feel free to ignore me. It doesn't get easier until you are actually doing it day after day after day. When I first started, I didn't really understand what "habit" meant. How was I supposed to tell when this actually became habit? Eventually it was easiest for me to compare it to brushing my teeth. I don't have to make a decision to brush my teeth each morning - it's just something I do. Eventually I stopped having to decide if I was going to eat sweets or seconds or snacks on N days - it's just something I don't do. THAT'S when it's habit. If you're still white-knuckling through your days, you haven't formed habits yet.
Don't think I'm not sympathetic - I remember how hard this was at the beginning (and how sometimes it's still hard). But I don't thing there's really any way around the work, and "more green than red" may not be enough to get you there.
I think someone on the board posted about how it takes 12 attempts, on average, to change a habit. So don't be discouraged by failure. Try again, be strict, and really strive for a prolonged period of green.
Good luck! I hope I haven't scared you off this. I'm struggling with a plateau right now myself, but I'm still absolutely convinced that this is how I want to eat for the rest of my life.
ETA: KCCC's post is great - I could not agree more strongly about eating food you enjoy on N days.
And now I'm going to be a little bit of a hardass with you, so please feel free to ignore me. It doesn't get easier until you are actually doing it day after day after day. When I first started, I didn't really understand what "habit" meant. How was I supposed to tell when this actually became habit? Eventually it was easiest for me to compare it to brushing my teeth. I don't have to make a decision to brush my teeth each morning - it's just something I do. Eventually I stopped having to decide if I was going to eat sweets or seconds or snacks on N days - it's just something I don't do. THAT'S when it's habit. If you're still white-knuckling through your days, you haven't formed habits yet.
Don't think I'm not sympathetic - I remember how hard this was at the beginning (and how sometimes it's still hard). But I don't thing there's really any way around the work, and "more green than red" may not be enough to get you there.
I think someone on the board posted about how it takes 12 attempts, on average, to change a habit. So don't be discouraged by failure. Try again, be strict, and really strive for a prolonged period of green.
Good luck! I hope I haven't scared you off this. I'm struggling with a plateau right now myself, but I'm still absolutely convinced that this is how I want to eat for the rest of my life.
ETA: KCCC's post is great - I could not agree more strongly about eating food you enjoy on N days.
Along with all the other suggestions, (to eat food you love, focus on establishing habits, knowing it will take time), I suggest you build your "mental" arsenal.
Because NoS makes so much sense and most of us are in reasonably good health, the basic structure of NoS is not a problem for us: we can happily thrive on 3 meals a day with no snacks, sweets, or seconds. That means the problems and struggles we face are less physical and more mental. Work on strengthening proper "mental" aspects of eating. And by this, I don't mean a lot of introspective belly-gazing.
Read and reread the sticky entitled NoS phrase glossary. It is a treasure chest of "right" thinking. When confronted with a "healthy" snack staring you in the face, it is very helpful to instantly have the phrase "eating a carrot isn't just eating a carrot, it is a break in the chain of habit". (paraphrase from the book). Or when feeling the urge to eat everything in sight on an S-day "don't be like a looter in a blackout." (also from the book). Or when you mess up, merely "mark it and move on." (My own modest contribution). Or any of the great sayings and mottoes you will find in the sticky. Not all will grab you, but some surely will.
Also, I mentioned a particular book in another post Beck Diet Solution which is entirely about restoring right thinking. The subtitle of the book is "Think like a Thin Person". With a bit of web browsing, you can glean (for free) lots of helpful tips on retraining how you think/approach food.
hth,
Because NoS makes so much sense and most of us are in reasonably good health, the basic structure of NoS is not a problem for us: we can happily thrive on 3 meals a day with no snacks, sweets, or seconds. That means the problems and struggles we face are less physical and more mental. Work on strengthening proper "mental" aspects of eating. And by this, I don't mean a lot of introspective belly-gazing.
Read and reread the sticky entitled NoS phrase glossary. It is a treasure chest of "right" thinking. When confronted with a "healthy" snack staring you in the face, it is very helpful to instantly have the phrase "eating a carrot isn't just eating a carrot, it is a break in the chain of habit". (paraphrase from the book). Or when feeling the urge to eat everything in sight on an S-day "don't be like a looter in a blackout." (also from the book). Or when you mess up, merely "mark it and move on." (My own modest contribution). Or any of the great sayings and mottoes you will find in the sticky. Not all will grab you, but some surely will.
Also, I mentioned a particular book in another post Beck Diet Solution which is entirely about restoring right thinking. The subtitle of the book is "Think like a Thin Person". With a bit of web browsing, you can glean (for free) lots of helpful tips on retraining how you think/approach food.
hth,
Vicki in MNE
7! Yrs. with Vanilla NoS, down 55+lb, happily maintaining and still loving it!
7! Yrs. with Vanilla NoS, down 55+lb, happily maintaining and still loving it!
Was that yours, Vicki? I didn't remember who coined the that phrase, but I've used it successfully several times when I've screwed up. Each time it has helped me minimize the damage and get right back on the wagon. Thanks!Or when you mess up, merely "mark it and move on." (My own modest contribution).
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leafy_greens
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:18 pm
Well I don't think I can claim that I "no longer have food issues" but they are definately better. Except for two days after I came back from vacation (I stayed green but it was hard) I don't usually have any problems on N-days--with the exception of restaurants which can be challenging. I did a quick look back over my posts from that period and I'd say it got easier around week 5 or 6. Here's a relavent example from this morning: I got a coupon in my e-mail to get cupcakes at a local bakery for half price today. I thought to myself "those look yummy" for about 30 seconds and dismissed the idea because today is Wednesday. Overall, looking at my Habitcal I've had 1 failure per month since January.
As far as S days go I am still working on eating the way I feel comfortable with on those days. However, no matter how I eat on S days I don't consider myself to have "broken all the rules" as IowaMom put it because I don't have any rules on S days--just an idea of what I think ideal S day behavior would look like. If I don't reach what I think is an ideal S day on Saturday I try to make Sunday better.
As far as S days go I am still working on eating the way I feel comfortable with on those days. However, no matter how I eat on S days I don't consider myself to have "broken all the rules" as IowaMom put it because I don't have any rules on S days--just an idea of what I think ideal S day behavior would look like. If I don't reach what I think is an ideal S day on Saturday I try to make Sunday better.
This version of myself is not permanent, tomorrow I will be different. --BEP
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leafy_greens
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:18 pm
. If Saturday comes and I'm still thinking about how great those cupcakes would be I'd just buy one at full price and enjoy it guilt free.-
leafy_greens
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:18 pm
I'm coming late to this party and might be missing something -- but what do you consider or how do you define "food issues"?
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."
"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."
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leafy_greens
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:18 pm
leafy-greens,
I chuckled at the thought that I no longer have "food issues". My first thought was that that idea would be news to my husband! Tonight, I was telling him about minimizing eating two days per week and how I think that will enable me to lose weight. I reminded him of the time he calculated that I had eaten 9 ice cream sandwiches in about two hours. This was a typical binge in pre-No S Days, only what made that particular binge special was I was caught. In fact, before No S, I had come to the conclusion that the way out of this obesity trap might start with controlled binges. For months and months, I really binged on S Days. One memorable time I had about 4,000 calories of caramel macademian clusters!
The key, to me, is what I call "perfect compliance". Failures are not allowed. I bank Exception Days. That is what I think has allowed me to not be obsessed about food. My favorite line from Reinhard's book is, "You're pre-disapproved." In other words, why think about food if you aren't going to eat anyway?
It took me about three weeks of pure torture before food obsession started to be reduced. Now I just plain don't think much about food between meals. If you go back in my thread, however, you'll see that I allowed myself anything I wanted on S Days. Anything. S Days started to stand for stomach aches. I started to get an aversive reaction to S Days, my husband complained that I was always sick, and one of my children told me on a Friday that I thought I wasn't feeling well because my body was anticipating overeating. That's how I got over food obsession.
Kathleen
I chuckled at the thought that I no longer have "food issues". My first thought was that that idea would be news to my husband! Tonight, I was telling him about minimizing eating two days per week and how I think that will enable me to lose weight. I reminded him of the time he calculated that I had eaten 9 ice cream sandwiches in about two hours. This was a typical binge in pre-No S Days, only what made that particular binge special was I was caught. In fact, before No S, I had come to the conclusion that the way out of this obesity trap might start with controlled binges. For months and months, I really binged on S Days. One memorable time I had about 4,000 calories of caramel macademian clusters!
The key, to me, is what I call "perfect compliance". Failures are not allowed. I bank Exception Days. That is what I think has allowed me to not be obsessed about food. My favorite line from Reinhard's book is, "You're pre-disapproved." In other words, why think about food if you aren't going to eat anyway?
It took me about three weeks of pure torture before food obsession started to be reduced. Now I just plain don't think much about food between meals. If you go back in my thread, however, you'll see that I allowed myself anything I wanted on S Days. Anything. S Days started to stand for stomach aches. I started to get an aversive reaction to S Days, my husband complained that I was always sick, and one of my children told me on a Friday that I thought I wasn't feeling well because my body was anticipating overeating. That's how I got over food obsession.
Kathleen
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leafy_greens
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:18 pm
Don't think I'll ever make it to 21...Leafy Greens, if you haven't located the podcasts, I recommend them highly. My favorite is the one on "strictness" - it has two big ideas that I found VERY useful.
1) The stricter you are in the beginning, the faster it gets easier.
2) Retribution (self-punishment) is not an antidote for failures - and in fact, can compound them.
Listening a LOT at the beginning helped me to "re-program" my mind a bit... it helped.
Good luck!
1) The stricter you are in the beginning, the faster it gets easier.
2) Retribution (self-punishment) is not an antidote for failures - and in fact, can compound them.
Listening a LOT at the beginning helped me to "re-program" my mind a bit... it helped.
Good luck!
leafy_greens,
The way I got to "perfect compliance" was:
1. It was my only priority, and
2. I created a bank of Exception Days.
If you look at page one of my thread, you'll see it was really hard for me at the beginning. Now I don't much want to take Exception Days because they would disrupt the rhythm of the week.
Kathleen
The way I got to "perfect compliance" was:
1. It was my only priority, and
2. I created a bank of Exception Days.
If you look at page one of my thread, you'll see it was really hard for me at the beginning. Now I don't much want to take Exception Days because they would disrupt the rhythm of the week.
Kathleen
I can't claim to have it be completely easy yet, but it was for awhile. I think I've seen what might be causing me trouble now, and it's with after dinner eating. I've had a habit even before No S of having about half my meal be vegetables. In order to fit everything on my dinner plate, including a fruit, I started to cut down on the starch. But I've also noticed that the days I do this, I've wanted to snack later and have done so a few times, last night being one of the times. It scares me because I don't want my other-habit self to think this is okay. The other way of saying it is that I've reinforced that habit again, and that is what makes it stronger: withdrawal and then re-introduction.
So, I'm going to make sure until it's very clear that I don't need as many calories that I have enough dense food at my dinner.
I don't know why it's been easy to go back to N days after S days, as it never was easy to get on track after a "cheat" day before. I guess I was using many of the principles others emphasized about N day meals already, except for these recent mistakes. Also, I don't think of them as cheat days. I think of them as the days I allow myself to understand how I really want to exercise free choice in eating. Now that I can have whatever I want, what do I really want to eat?
I also want to stress the thinking side of things. Someone suggested learning and using many of the sayings that are on one of the other threads. I've also posted that the technique of identifying thought patterns that permit you to eat (I just really want that, This bite won't matter, Why is this so hard, I shouldn't have to be so strict, I ate too little at my last meal, etc.), labeling them as part of your "obsession" with food (since you've eaten enough, they can't come from need), actively dismissing them as being unnecessary to obey, and then actively choosing to beocme absorbed in an alternative behavior has been shown to change brain patterns. Some days that can be really hard and you may have to redirect your thoughts over and over. But it can become the default.
Good luck and if nothing else, enjoy every bite every day!
If worse comes to worst, you can go back to traditional dieting....!!!
So, I'm going to make sure until it's very clear that I don't need as many calories that I have enough dense food at my dinner.
I don't know why it's been easy to go back to N days after S days, as it never was easy to get on track after a "cheat" day before. I guess I was using many of the principles others emphasized about N day meals already, except for these recent mistakes. Also, I don't think of them as cheat days. I think of them as the days I allow myself to understand how I really want to exercise free choice in eating. Now that I can have whatever I want, what do I really want to eat?
I also want to stress the thinking side of things. Someone suggested learning and using many of the sayings that are on one of the other threads. I've also posted that the technique of identifying thought patterns that permit you to eat (I just really want that, This bite won't matter, Why is this so hard, I shouldn't have to be so strict, I ate too little at my last meal, etc.), labeling them as part of your "obsession" with food (since you've eaten enough, they can't come from need), actively dismissing them as being unnecessary to obey, and then actively choosing to beocme absorbed in an alternative behavior has been shown to change brain patterns. Some days that can be really hard and you may have to redirect your thoughts over and over. But it can become the default.
Good luck and if nothing else, enjoy every bite every day!
If worse comes to worst, you can go back to traditional dieting....!!!
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
Just wondering WHEN this gets easier.........
IowaMom, this question occurs to me - are you talking about weight-loss stage or maintenance stage? Because I'm thinking there's a difference, not sure if it can ever be easy to be in constant calorie deficit - except in so far as you just accept the discomfort, and it becomes easier in that sense.
Otherwise, I think a particular level of calorific intake will get easier only when your body shrinks to the point where that is all that is needed.
Otherwise, I think a particular level of calorific intake will get easier only when your body shrinks to the point where that is all that is needed.
Not sure what Graham meant, as No S has no official weight loss and maintenance phases. While it is true that there has to be a caloric deficit to lose weight, people can lose over a period of time hardly noticing the deficit. Some people may have noticed that they felt a desire to eat more at the beginning or the end? I'm still eating too much on S days to judge.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)