Long-Time No-S-ers: Maintenance?

[Cold7Play7]

I started No S last September and, because I was very enthusiastic (and maybe a little too legalistic) in adhering to the rules I lost fifteen pounds in three months, which was all the weight I needed to lose. My problem is maintenance-- eventually, the extra rules I had imposed upon myself got to be too much and I went off the diet altogether. I want to come back to No S because I am tired of feeling anxious about food, not because I need to lose weight.

My question is, how maintainable is No S once you are thin? Is it hard to stay motivated? Right now, the stretch between lunch and dinner is so difficult (sometimes I have to wait eight hours between meals) that I am not sure how maintainable this will be; also I do not like milk. Although I can survive this stretch, it is sufficiently difficult to make No-S remain a constant, conscious decision-- the opposite of habit. How hungry are you when you do this long term?

[kccc]

My problem is maintenance-- eventually, the extra rules I had imposed upon myself got to be too much and I went off the diet altogether.

First question: What extra rules did you impose, and why were they something you couldn't live with? It sounds as if you used No-S more as a crash diet than as a way to modify habits... (Apologies if I'm inferring too much... but it sounds as if you never really established the habits to begin with.)

I have done No-S for 3-4 years at this point. I keep pretty close to "vanilla"... It helps that my schedule is relatively regular. I eat enough food at meals to feel satisfied until just before my next meal. It's not even a "diet" in my mind - just "how I eat."

If "vanilla" doesn't work for you (once you drop the "extra" rules, that is!), then look at the problem areas and consider how to address them. If your schedule means that two meals are eight hours apart, maybe you need to eat 4 smaller meals a day so that you can manage that time. Listen to Reinhard's podcast series on making modifications, read through what others have done, and do what is sensible and will work for you.

Good luck!

[wosnes]

I don't do vanilla No-S; I've modified it to more suit me, but none of the modifications make it more restrictive. I take floating S events instead of S days, but this isn't something I started doing until I'd been on No-S for about 3 years.

I'm rarely hungry between meals (I often have 6-7 hours or more between lunch and dinner), but if I am I drink water or coffee. If that doesn't do it, I either have a glass of vegetable juice or a piece of fruit or some raw vegetables. I understand Reinhard's rationale for not having something you chew between meals, I just don't agree with it. Unless I use milk or juice to make a smoothie (which is a meal substitute), I don't drink milk and rarely drink juice.

I'd suggest trying Vanilla No-S for 3-6 months to give it a fair trial. I don't think it's difficult. The modifications I've made are more to suit me and not more restrictive.

[Doran]

IAlthough I can survive this stretch, it is sufficiently difficult to make No-S remain a constant, conscious decision-- the opposite of habit. How hungry are you when you do this long term?

I am not a long term No S'er. I've been at this for just over a month. But, the question you've asked above is the same one I find myself pushing aside in my brain again and again, as I tell myself I haven't been committed to the diet long enough to worry. Given how I feel between meals right now (mostly, as you note, between lunch and dinner), and noticing how frequently my thoughts wind their their way to the rumbly in my tumbly (hat tip Pooh), I'm wondering if or how I'll ever get this method to stick. Many folks seem to realize a gradual shift from "conscious decision" to habit. But, I remain skeptical. (Voice in head: "You've not been at this long enough to worry.")

Silly me. I thought that, after a month, the between meal hunger pangs would be subsiding. Apparently not. But what if they don't? Ever? Do people just grow accustomed to feeling vaguely hungry all the time (which is how I would describe myself for the past month)? Do they modify the diet to eliminate that feeling? What are the long-term expectations?

[Elspeth]

I'm not really a long-termer (less than four months in), but thought I'd chime in anyway. I often still feel hungry between meals, but my attitude toward that hunger has changed. Once upon a time the "rumbly in my tumbly" (love Pooh, btw) used to be a signal to EAT! NOW! but eventually I came to welcome the feeling, knowing that in a few hours I would be sitting down to dinner. Also I know that if I don't give in, the initial hunger pangs will subside, so that reinforces the decision to stay on habit.

I'll be interested to hear what some of the long time No Sers say about this.

[leafy_greens]

Elspeth, I think we are conditioned to EAT! NOW! because we are falsely told that our metabolisms will slow if we wait for a stomach growl. Now that I have seen the light I just roll my eyes at all these diet articles that tell you that you have to graze all day.

[wosnes]

IAlthough I can survive this stretch, it is sufficiently difficult to make No-S remain a constant, conscious decision-- the opposite of habit. How hungry are you when you do this long term?

I am not a long term No S'er. I've been at this for just over a month. But, the question you've asked above is the same one I find myself pushing aside in my brain again and again, as I tell myself I haven't been committed to the diet long enough to worry. Given how I feel between meals right now (mostly, as you note, between lunch and dinner), and noticing how frequently my thoughts wind their their way to the rumbly in my tumbly (hat tip Pooh), I'm wondering if or how I'll ever get this method to stick. Many folks seem to realize a gradual shift from "conscious decision" to habit. But, I remain skeptical. (Voice in head: "You've not been at this long enough to worry.")

Silly me. I thought that, after a month, the between meal hunger pangs would be subsiding. Apparently not. But what if they don't? Ever? Do people just grow accustomed to feeling vaguely hungry all the time (which is how I would describe myself for the past month)? Do they modify the diet to eliminate that feeling? What are the long-term expectations?

I have two responses to this. 1) I think it takes significantly longer than a month for there to be a change. 2) So what if the rumbly in the tummy doesn't go away? Well, so what? There's nothing wrong with being hungry! It's not abnormal and you're going to eat in the very near future.

This is from Bittman's Food Matters:

There's a basic truth here: there are stages of hunger, and we -- Americans in general -- have become accustomed to feeding ourselves at the first sign. This is the equivalent of taking a nap every time you get tired, which hardly anyone does.

There are levels of hunger, and there is a very real difference between hunger and starvation. Starvation is a physical state; your body is deprived of essential nutrients or calories for a long period of time. Probably no one reading this book has ever been truly starving -- though we all think we know what starving feels like.

Hunger is a hard-wired early-warning system. At first, your brain says, "Think about eating something soon." In later stages it says, "Eat as soon as you can; make eating a priority." At no point does your brain say, "Eat now or you will do permanent damage," though at times it may feel as if this is true. But "Eat when hungry" has become a habit. We get hungry. We eat. We get hungry again. We eat again. And so on.

I'm not saying, "Don't eat when you're hungry." I"m saying that if losing or maintaining weight is important to you, think twice before you eat from simple hunger, or from other reasons, like emotion. And when you do eat, choose a piece of fruit, a carrot, a handful of nuts. If you're still hungry, have more. And more. Eat a pint of blueberries, or cherry tomatoes, have a mango, or a banana and an apple. Have a lightly dressed salad. You would be hard-pressed to gain weight eating this way.

You can also embrace hunger, strange as that may sound, just as you might embrace the delicious anticipation of a nap, or sexual craving. Your hunger will, after all, be satisfied. Why not wait an hour? (You're not dying, after all!) You might also stop eating before you're full (three-quarters full is probably about right). And if you eat slowly, taking your time, you'll give the food time to reach your stomach and give you a sense of satisfaction before you have seconds or thirds.

If you embrace moderation, eat whole foods instead of junk, live within your physical, monetary, and environmental budget rather than constantly exceeding it, as so many of us do, you will lose weight, tread more lightly on the planet, and gain satisfaction from these things.

Eating as soon as we feel hungry is probably a good part of the reason many of us are here.

[ShannahR]

I'm not a long-timer either ( 4 months in) but I thought I'd chime in anyways . I still get hungry between meals--about 1 hour before I usually eat. However, I read somewhere that it is normal and healthy to be hungry approximately 1 hour before you eat so I don't worry about it.

I have a question for the people that are hungry "all the time." Is it really all the time? Do you finish lunch or dinner and are you hungry 5 minutes, 15 minutes, 30 minutes and 60 minutes later? When I started I thought I was hungry "all the time" too but I realized that wasn't really true. I didn't think about food as much and when I did think about food/being hungry it was about 1 hr before a meal--but because that was the only time I thought about food it seemed like I was hungry all the time. I'm not sure if that makes sense but that was my experience.

[Happy Cooker]

I'm coming up on two years of following No S. I do maintain my original weight loss and have even lost a little more--in inches and weight--in the last few months, mostly because I've been more active.

I'd say (1) make sure you're drinking enough between meals, (2) distract yourself with some activity if you can--it's amazing what a brisk walk can do, maybe climbing some stairs, or just spending some time outdoors, if that's possible; (3) make your lunch bigger or have it a little later. Americans tend to eat more for dinner than for lunch. Try making double portions for dinner and toting the leftovers to work for lunch. Go for something more substantial than salad or sandwich for lunch. (4) Make sure you're getting enough fat and protein at lunch. These make you feel full longer. (5) Eat lunch later. No S really does work!

BTW, I regularly put salad in a separate bowl from other food. The important thing for me is to keep an eye on overall quantity of food per meal, and most leafy salads really pack down to nothing. I also have no qualms about having a slice of excellent bread with a bowl of soup, though some might argue that this breaks the fits-on-a-plate rule.

[leafy_greens]

Fitting everything on a plate can be a bit legalistic, unless you like eating everything piled on top of each other and smooshed together. It's ok to eat what would have fit on the plate, but on a separate plate so your food isn't colliding. For example, I have my fries and grilled cheese on separate plates, because I don't want ketchup getting on my sandwich, but the amount of food would easily fit on one plate. Or if you are eating soup, it's ok to have the bread on a separate plate, because it would be silly to put the bread in the soup bowl and have it get mushy just to follow a rule. Use your common sense!

[Too solid flesh]

After four years of No S-ing, I still get hungry between meals, but it has become more tolerable and I am not panic-stricken by it! I find that I only lose weight when I get hungry between meals. However, I am still trying to lose weight, not to maintain.

According to the National Weight Control Register's research, for people who lose weight on their own (ie not by liquid formula or organized programs), maintaining their weight is easier than losing it:

Liquid Formula users reported that weight maintenance was more difficult than losing weight, whereas individuals who lost weight on their own reported the reverse.

see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9665 ... t=Abstract

I am hoping that this means that when/if I am ever slim, maintenance will be easier than weight loss, and hunger will not be such an issue.

[Happy Cooker]

Hmm, I realize I didn't answer the question, how hungry are you when you do No S long term? I am most likely to get hungry in the hour or two before dinner, especially if lunch was light. I just live with it; it's nice to be hungry for a meal, rather than just eating because it's time to.

But I work at home, and if I'm starving by 5:30, I just eat early. If you're consistently not getting home till fairly late, you might want to make a regular fourth but light meal in the afternoon, like a piece of fruit and some nuts or cheese, to tide you over till you can have a decent dinner. Really, the number of meals is up to you, and the strictness with which you maintain separation between meal and snack. And I'd say having a piece of fruit in the afternoon is better than getting so frustrated with hunger that you dump No S completely.

[Cold7Play7]

Thank you so much for your replies, everyone! I could not agree more with everyone who said that it is good to be hungry one to two hours before a meal-- I find I don't enjoy them if I am not sufficiently hungry.

To answer KCCC, the extra rules I added were mostly concerning portion control-- I limited my portions at breakfast and dinner very carefully. I also became sort of afraid of S days so I skipped them sometimes, or would skip meals on S days. Looking over Reinhard's explanation of No S, I realize that none of these were good ideas for long-term habit-building.

Thank you, Happy Cooker, for the suggestion about eating more lunch. Today I ate more at lunch and a little later and it made a huge difference-- I see how the diet would be maintainable if I could always eat this way.

Unfortunately, there are days when I must eat lunch at 11. On those days, I am genuinely hungry by 4 or 5, perhaps because I find myself unable to eat much at such an early hour. What kind of mini-meal could I maybe build into those days that would fit with No S?

[sheepish]

I think it might be worth rethinking the timing of your meals. If you absolutely can't eat lunch at a more normal lunch time (12.30-2ish, in my opinion!), maybe you could have breakfast later than usual (10 or so) and then have lunch at more like 3 and then dinner at 8?

You might also want to think about what you're eating at lunch, perhaps you not only need to eat more but a different type of food as well? I find that I need to have a certain amount of carbohydrate with a meal for me to feel full and that a small amount of foods high in fat fills me up as well (peanut butter, cheese, nuts) but that protein doesn't really do so but you may be completely different.

[kccc]

Cold7play7, when I was first starting, I thought I would DIE without my 4:30 snack - I was so used to having food then! So, I "phased in" No-S, dropping all snacks but that one for a while. Then I limited what it could be, from a handful of reasonable alternatives. Then I started questioning "do I need this?" before I had it (if the answer was "yes," I still had it - I was just trying to distinguish whether I needed it or was eating out of habit). Eventually, it went away... but it took a while.

Which leads to a possible route for you... One variant that several people use here are "planned" mini-meals. In my mind, the difference between a mini-meal and a snack is that a mini-meal is bounded - at a planned time, and consisting of "real food" in a limited portion - while snacks tend to be unplanned, and generally of poor food choices. The danger, of course, is that adding in an extra occasion to eat can raise the total amount of food consumed or make it harder to track. But sometimes, when schedules are wonky, it's the best solution - just be alert to possible overload. (But don't worry about overload at first - worry about habit! It does seem to me that you missed that critical step, which is why it's hard now.)

Good luck!

[oolala53]

Just want ed to reiterate about feeling hungry all the time. Eat enough at a meal so that you don't feel hungry right after!

What does hungry feel like to you? I know when I ate compulsively, I would want to eat about 2 hours after a meal. But I wasnt really stomach hungry. I just had an urge. About 2-3 hours later, I would start to feel real hungry. Very different.

I don't feel that urge after meals anymore. Not rewarding those urges helps diminish them.

Really examine your schedule, too. Is it really necessary to go 8 hours? I'm a teacher, and we sometimes have days on which lunch is scheduled early. I don't eat lunch then, though. I have to wait longer for my own lunch, but it's worth it. Then the gap to dinner may be even shorter.

Alternately, I sometimes do eat dinner very early, say at 5 p.m. I try to be sure to go to bed before 10 p.m. those days.

If you really do have to wait, virtual plate dinner. Have a snack of what would constitute 1/4 to 1/3 of your dinner. Then have a smaller dinner. I like not eating single foods, like carrot sticks or an apple, for a snack, but have a mini-meal. Others swear by a piece of fruit. You can make it individual. But three meals is best.