Problem with "S" days as "cheat" days

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BrightAngel
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Problem with "S" days as "cheat" days

Post by BrightAngel » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:56 pm

Over the past 6 years, I've seen lots of people disappear who use "S" days as "cheat" days.
Even after 6 months to 1 year of "vanilla" noS, most of the obese people who use "S" days as "cheat Days
never seem to be able to stop their weekend Bingeing without making some corrective modifications.
And while I've visited this forum almost every day for the past 6 years,
I've not seen very many of these well-into-obesity people lose very much weight.

Occasional indulgences such as Reinhard intended (SOMETIMES) seem to work well,
but viewing "S" days as Unlimited Overeating Days simply does not work.
at least not for people well over the Obesity BMI border.
I totally agree with the following video.


http://www.weightymatters.ca/2014/04/th ... eting.html
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com

wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:18 pm

I agree!
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

oolala53
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Post by oolala53 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:14 am

Given how the doctor talks about it, I agree, too. Not sure what to call the relaxed days, though. I personally never called or thought of them as "cheat" days. And I think there has to be a way to allow for S's. I know I needed them to be rather free. I'm not sure I would have made it if I had thought I had to rein them in earlier, but I also am not really the kind of case you are talking about. I finally reached the point at which I was willing to institute mods, but I did have to do that. It didn't happen on its own. I wish I knew how to guide someone to reach this point earlier. Obviously, those who are still eating a lot of S's on weekends six months or a year later are having trouble deciding that they really need to give up some of that freedom, if they want to lose more weight. My attachment to food has been reignited recently in a way I thought was over, and it is not very much fun at times. (Right now is one of them.) But I'm not even overweight anymore (by medical standards - I'm still heavy by peers' standards, at least for themselves.) So I do sympathize.

No question about it: getting and remaining slim is not easy nor automatic for most people. Testimonials of the lucky ones do not negate this truth.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 67
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (more flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There was no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

Bennedicta
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Post by Bennedicta » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:13 am

I think I agree, although it am a new member.

I understand the idea of s days is to be able to go out with ones partner and indulge in a piece of slice for morning tea at the weekend. OR have some desert. OR have seconds of pizza. But maybe not all of those things at once....

Moderation doesn't seem to come easy for many folks. And those who do seem to find it easy may just be moving their excess into another area....like I suspect I may be doing.

I wish I knew what the solution is. For now I shall stick with moving my excesses to a healthier arena (running) but is there something about humans that make use want to overdo it?

Benni

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Lily x
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Post by Lily x » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:58 am

Actually... :)

As one of those people who's "well into obesity" (trust me, I'm not 'into it' at all ;)), I'm going to take a slightly different view.

I reckon people disappear after having lots of "S days gone wild" because they can't get shot of their diet-head mentality. The guilt does them in. Put it this way, it's done me in in the past. I rather think that people need to be able to trust that they can overindulge on S days if they want to, in order to get to the point of *choosing* not to overindulge on S days.

That perhaps doesn't make sense to anyone but me. But I do feel that the moment you try to restrict (if you're someone with a well established diet-head like me), you're likely to run into trouble. I know I do. I think it probably needs to happen naturally. If you know that you can always have something sweet a maximum of 5 days away, the sense of deprivation doesn't kick in, or at least, not as hard.

I guess it's the naughty child in me. If you tell that naughty child "no", it makes it want the forbidden thing more. Turn it into a "you could have it, but do you really want it right now?" and it becomes easier to pass up.

But it's going to take some of us longer to moderate S days than others. And for some, the lack of weight loss will make them give up and try some other diet. That's why they disappear. They don't keep going with No S long enough for the moderation thing to kick in. It's certainly where I've gone wrong in the past.


Oh, and the other thing...

6 months, a year. That's not actually a long time if you've been on other diets your whole life. The more diets you've done, the longer I reckon it might take to do moderation. I've been on (and off) diets for the last 32 years. That's 32 years of embedded "diet" thinking to unravel. No S is a completely different way of thinking.

I don't think anyone's ever proved the "it takes 21 days to change a habit" thing (if they have, do let me know!). But even if that's true, it's never going to be true for all. Some of us are always going to take longer... :oops:

wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:52 am

oolala53 wrote:Given how the doctor talks about it, I agree, too. Not sure what to call the relaxed days, though. I personally never called or thought of them as "cheat" days. And I think there has to be a way to allow for S's. I know I needed them to be rather free. I'm not sure I would have made it if I had thought I had to rein them in earlier, but I also am not really the kind of case you are talking about. I finally reached the point at which I was willing to institute mods, but I did have to do that. It didn't happen on its own. I wish I knew how to guide someone to reach this point earlier. Obviously, those who are still eating a lot of S's on weekends six months or a year later are having trouble deciding that they really need to give up some of that freedom, if they want to lose more weight. My attachment to food has been reignited recently in a way I thought was over, and it is not very much fun at times. (Right now is one of them.) But I'm not even overweight anymore (by medical standards - I'm still heavy by peers' standards, at least for themselves.) So I do sympathize.

No question about it: getting and remaining slim is not easy nor automatic for most people. Testimonials of the lucky ones do not negate this truth.
I would call the relaxed days treat days. The reason for this is that cheat has a negative connotation: cheat on your taxes, cheat on your spouse. A treat is a positive thing and promotes good feelings instead of guilt. Or should.

Within the last six months or so, I gave up snacking completely, even on S days. I'm looking at it as something that is for emergencies only - when a meal is going to be really late (more than two hours) or some other scenario that I can't think of now.

S-day treats happen at meals. That reduces the ability to really over-indulge.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

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MerryKat
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Post by MerryKat » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:04 am

Such interesting posts.

I have never thought of the S days as cheat days for me they have just been a normal part of No S (and normal eating) where treats are for special days and weekends. Some of my S days are wild (these days even the wild ones are fairly tame) but then many are not.

Even all the many times I have fallen off of the No S wagon; S days have not been what has caused me to fall. For me the trouble starts when I allow the snacks / sweets to creep into a N day - that rapidly causes the wheels to come off and it seems to mentally flick a switch to the Pity Party Division. For me some of the N day snacking issues come when I try to restrict what I can eat at my 3 meals. Then I feel denied and then I tend to break out.

I agree with Lilly that it takes time for people to trust that they can enjoy S days (even go wild) as they chose. Once this trust is set then the moderation slowly seems to creep in.
Hugs from Sunny South Africa
Vanilla No S with no Sugar due to Health issues - 11 yrs No S - September 2016 (some good, some bad (my own doing) but always the right thing for me!)

noni
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Re: Problem with "S" days as "cheat" day

Post by noni » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:55 pm

Brigh Angel said:
"Occasional indulgences such as Reinhard intended (SOMETIMES) seem to work well,
but viewing "S" days as Unlimited Overeating Days simply does not work.
at least not for people well over the Obesity BMI border."

Indeed, even those not in the obesity BMI range, but are a short female of a certain age, you can have these problems. I'm going on two years soon at my second attempt at No S and my S days are almost always indulgent. The 28 lbs I lost are creeping back. I have not eaten lighter during my N days, but eat according to my previous heavier self. To at least maintain my lighter weight, I would need to do as wosnes does...not snack on S-days as well as eat lighter on N days to lose or maintain my weight. I know what to do, but doing it is something else.

oolala53
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Post by oolala53 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:55 pm

BrightAngel, I realize that I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. Is it that it seems the truly obese do not seem to be able to have the freedom of S days evolve naturally into moderation? That when told that they should just let go on those days until the overeating decreases without much thinking about it, they tend to keep overeating month after month, get discouraged, and leave? Are you suggesting some people may need mods to start with?

I think that letting the wild days die down without any conscious intervention, i.e., mod, is unrealistic for some. It might be the obese or not. I'm not sure how to remedy this, as I said before. I was willing to go for two years before I accepted to make a mod. (My health was not in jeopardy, so I felt I could afford to wait. I didn't start out in the high obese range. In fact, I felt I couldn't afford NOT to wait. I was attached to the pleasure, and felt it was more important to not rock the boat any more than I was.) It's one of those things that can't be relegated a time limit, just as each person comes to her own readiness to make the necessary changes: to see the great value in the change, the disadvantage in the present behavior, and to see the difficulty of change as small enough to endure to at least give the change a chance. The pleasurable reward of the overeating and the difficulty of giving it up may be more intense for the obese, so that just having freedom on S days (thus supposedly undermining the deprivation issue) may not be enough. Psychological deprivation is not the only reason people overeat! But no matter what individual testimonies there are, the odds of finding a viable alternative aren't very good.

BrightAngel, I realize I've never understood how you use No S. Do you stick to 3 meals, but also track calories? And continue to experiment with food types or limiting calories?
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 67
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (more flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There was no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

earl7z
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Post by earl7z » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:12 pm

wosnes wrote:I would call the relaxed days treat days. The reason for this is that cheat has a negative connotation: cheat on your taxes, cheat on your spouse. A treat is a positive thing and promotes good feelings instead of guilt. Or should.
I really like that...
All you can do is all you can do.

Food doesn't make you fat. Too much food makes you fat.

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BrightAngel
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Post by BrightAngel » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:05 pm

oolala53 wrote:BrightAngel, I realize that I'm not sure what point you were trying to make.
Is it that it seems the truly obese do not seem to be able to have the freedom of S days evolve naturally into moderation?
That when told that they should just let go on those days until the overeating decreases without much thinking about it,
they tend to keep overeating month after month, get discouraged, and leave?
Are you suggesting some people may need mods to start with?

I think that letting the wild days die down without any conscious intervention, i.e., mod, is unrealistic for some.
It might be the obese or not.
I'm not sure how to remedy this, as I said before.

BrightAngel, I realize I've never understood how you use No S.
Do you stick to 3 meals, but also track calories?
And continue to experiment with food types or limiting calories?
oolala,
I think that many of Dr. Freedhoff's Diet Myth and Diet Fix concepts fit together well with No S concepts,
and I think that some of these concepts might be helpful to some people here at No S.

Reinhard has ALWAYS POINTED OUT that he is not a medical professional,
that he has no personal experience, and very little knowledge, about Bingeing,
eating disorders, Severe Obesity, or a lifetime of yo yo dieting.
I admire his Honesty about this issue, together with the fact that Reinhard accepts and acknowledges
that his No S diet Habit Plan is not necessarily mutually-exclusive
and that its principles can be easily adapted as needed and used with many other diets.

From what I've witnessed here over the past 6 years,
many people who are overweight, or near the bottom border of obesity,
seem to do quite well with the basic "vanilla" No S principles,
in that at the beginning, and occasionally thereafter, they may "overindulge" on "S" days,
but over time, primarily through becoming very Aware and Concious of their S day behavior,
together with their personal Shame and Guilt, they either modify that behavior without adding further rules,
OR they modify their personal No S diet, giving themselves additional "S" day rules.
This, in fact, is exactly what Reinhard both predicts and recommends.

My personal observation is that MOST of the time, the principles of unmodified "S" day eating is ineffective,
and simply DOES NOT WORK ...even over time... for people who are Seriously Obese...
...meaning those who have spent many years living far above the obesity BMI border.

Although I have personally dealt with severe obesity, for all of my life,
I have no ultimate answers or ultimate solutions for people who are severely obese.
I've come up with personal observations and possible solutions,
and my personal blog, DietHobby, talks about these isssues a great deal.
I've made no secret of the fact that my own personal weight-loss and maintenance
requires constant vigilence, and ongoing experimentation.

IMO: "DietHead" is a negative term useful only for those who are exhausted with their dieting failures,
and who wish to avoid taking further personal responsibility for their own ongoing food choices.
I reject that concept, and I have learned that ... for me...any short term "peace"
that comes from giving up personal vigilance over my food and weight issues
has always resulted in a very rude (and unpeaceful) awakening.

My own choice is to consistently approach my food intake mindfully,
to be constantly aware of how my food and my weight relate to each other,
and to purposely choose to view "dieting" issues as an enjoyable "hobby".

I understand why you would feel you don't have a clear understanding of my personal dieting practices.
My own personal diet / food-plan / way-of-eating has a great deal of flexibility.
The only thing that I am consistely "rigid" about is my choice
to track and log ALL of my food EVERY DAY into a computer software food journal.
I have done this every day since September 20, 2004... It is now an enjoyable HABIT,
and my computer history tells me that "0 out of 3503 days have missing data".

My computer food journal automatically gives me access to
extensive nutritional information about my food, including calories.
I see that information every day, so it is something of which I am constantly aware.
Since I have ongoing information of how my own weight relates to my own calorie ingestion,
I pay attention to that calorie number and I consistently work toward
keeping my ongoing calorie averages low enough to avoid weight gain.
Sometimes I feel frustrated, but shame or guilt is not part of my personal mind-set.

The No S concept that has been the most valuable to me is the Habit concept.
I've found No S to be flexible enough to be valuable for my own long-term use.
Over the years, I've used No S principles in many different ways,
and I really like the support I've received from Reinhard for that process.

There are times when I practiced "vanilla" No S, exactly as recommended;
I learned very quickly that, for me, following a basic "S" day plan without modification
would take me rapidly back into morbid obesity,
and I've experimented with many different "S" day, modifications.
There are times when I've experimented with the specific number of meals in my "n" days,
trying out midifications involving having more and having less daily meals.
There are times when I've experimented with various other modifications,
sometimes independant personal mofifications,
sometimes these modifications which involve combining No S principles with other diets.

Except for my consistemt daily food tracking Habit,
I am quite flexible about involving myself with food-intake experiments.
Sometimes I've combined No S with experiments of different food types.
Sometimes I've combined No S with experiments of higher and low calories.
Sometimes I've modified No S to fit in with other food intake experiments.

My ongoing pattern is to engage myself in a variety of dieting experiments.
I continue to do this because I have not yet found ONE single way-of-eating
that will allow me to maintain my large weight-loss in a sustainable and enjoyable manner.

At present, what is sustainable and enjoyable for me is the habit of searching and experimenting.
Anyone interested in the details can access the hundreds of posts and videos through my DietHobby Archives,
or by following my ongoing DietHobby posts.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com

noni
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Post by noni » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:54 am

Bright Angel said,

"I have not yet found ONE single way-of-eating
that will allow me to maintain my large weight-loss in a sustainable and enjoyable manner."

When you do find it, please let us know! :)

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MerryKat
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Post by MerryKat » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:56 am

Thank you for your post Bright Angel.

So good to understand more of how you handle your eating, etc. I love the concept you have of your watching over your eating is your hobby.

Shows the amazing flexibility of No S as a base structure - works on it's own for some and with various mods for others.
Hugs from Sunny South Africa
Vanilla No S with no Sugar due to Health issues - 11 yrs No S - September 2016 (some good, some bad (my own doing) but always the right thing for me!)

oolala53
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Post by oolala53 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:24 pm

Would you say you frequently eat three times a day or does that vary? I take it you rarely make much of a change in whatever guidelines you're using just because it's an S day. What situations merit extra food or normally limited food types for you? Just curious.

No hurry for an answer. I know you keep up with a lot of people!
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 67
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (more flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There was no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

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BrightAngel
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Post by BrightAngel » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:53 pm

oolala53 wrote:Would you say you frequently eat three times a day or does that vary?
I take it you rarely make much of a change in whatever guidelines
you're using just because it's an S day.
What situations merit extra food or normally limited food types for you?
Just curious.

No hurry for an answer. I know you keep up with a lot of people!
Oolala, right now, I'm working on a 3 meal a day schedule.

Generally,
I treat big holidays like Christmas, Thanksgiving etc, in the same way most long-term No S people do,
EXCEPT that I record all of the food I eat on those days in my food journal,
and I eat less caloric dense foods in the days before and/or after
to offset the extra food and drop my caloric averages to what is "normal" for me.
Other exception times are optional, but almost always they are pre-planned.

Generally,
I don't have a "no sweets rule".
If I really want a sweet on ANY day, I'll have it, record it, and
work make it fit inside the ongoing caloric average that it takes me to maintain my weight.

I don't have seconds, or large portions, and I work to avoid snacking.
If snacks become a giant problem, I handle that by temporarily
increasing my specific number of daily meals, while greatly reducing my portion sizes.

Some parts of my food plan have more value to me personally than other parts.
When I make modifications, I seldom change anything that is already working well for me.
Habits that I find rewarding, once formed, tend to stay with me.

I have the same ongoing problem as everyone else here.
I continually desire more food than my body will use as energy.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com

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