RG Ponders it All

[RG12]

Hi all,

I decided to try this diet (I think I wrote it off decades ago) almost three weeks ago, and am cautiously optimistic.
I'm a short female, so my goal weight is 120. I'm going to try vanilla no-S for at least 2 months, but I suspect I need to use smaller plates or lower-density foods.

Two fails so far.
Today was weird, I got hashbrowns and a croissant-sandwich at a fast food joint for breakfast. My phone sent me this offer, for almost free. Otherwise I never eat fast food. Anyway, it was a ginormous number of calories, and okay delicious, so I was planning to skip lunch. But then there was free salad in the break room, with nice, fancy lettuce and just a few grapes. I had two plates of that lettuce, FAIL.
Last week was similar, I ate my 3 meals, was about to go to bed when my Mom needed me to do something (my parents are 85 and 91 and not great at technology). It should have taken 5 minutes but took an hour. I gave up and called the person who sent the chore to send it a different way, and while I was waiting I ate 4 Persian cucumbers with a small amount of hummus. I'd gone on a longish walk so I was a little hungry, but mostly tired/ annoyed/ frustrated. FAIL.

In general I'd say I'm eating LESS vegetables than before. I used to cut up bell pepper, cucumber, celery, and munch on it whenever I was stuck on something at work. Now I chew gum or drink tea. But again, I'm optimistic that cutting out snacks will be a good plan. Also I don't tend to add as many vegetables to my main meals because I'm forcing myself to eat a bigger meal to prevent being hungry.

I was just reading the chapter on sugar. I've used fake sugar for my tea for 30+ years (I'm 55), and I'm happy with Stevia, and don't plan to switch to sugar. I drink 5 cups of tea (1 coffee, 2 black tea, 2 herbal tea) every day and I counted that that's 14 pounds of sugar a year I'm not eating. I've never had a serious sweet tooth but I'm finding things to eat on the weekends. I'm not sure if a chocolate croissant is an S or a borderline, but I save it for the weekend. I buy sweets only for my Mom (she can't eat store-made salty things). But sometimes muffins and cupcakes show up at work and I used to eat them out of stress and boredom. I like cake, but don't buy it for myself. Anyway, I just can't fathom the 100 pounds of sugar per person per year. I bet half of that is from soda. I calculated that the kombucha I drink is 7 pounds of sugar per year.

That's all for now, I have some other questions and thoughts, but one at a time.

[Amy3010]

Hi RG and welcome to the boards! It sounds like you are really exploring how No-S can work for you - I think a lot of us here have gone through a similar process and we wish you success

[pinkhippie]

Welcome RG!

Glad to have you here! I have noticed sometimes when we go to change our habits, it seems the universe is trying really hard to keep us from doing so and weird things pop up! Keep at it! It is an adjustment with the fruits and veggies for sure! I remember going through something similar. Please continue to update and ask questions! We have lots of No S veterans on this board. Again, welcome!

[RG12]

Hi again,

Today actually marks 21 days, not sure how much I worry about my vegetable failures.
But I had another iffy situation today: there was a speaker at work and they brought in lunch. I ate the salad and bread, skipped the cookie, chips, and soda. But they also brought in another dessert, Italian Ice. In the moment I decided the sugar-free version would be okay. It was a small cup, but still, thinking about it later I bet it's made with some sugar alcohols with calories. Not like the sugar-free yogurt I eat that's made with splenda. Oh, well.

One of the things I've been thinking about lately is variety. My Dad (who was raised in India, is 91, is not slim) is very happy with his same old-same-old. I remember a coworker (raised in India) saying we all like what we grow up eating. I thought she was nuts. My favorite cuisine is probably Thai. But mostly I like whatever I haven't eaten in awhile. Italian, Mexican, American, Chinese, Indian, Thai... I'm not saying I dislike Indian food, but I'm rarely tempted to have seconds. Oh, at one point Reinhard says Chinese and Indians don't eat brown rice. While that's strictly true, North Indians eat mostly roti/chapati/tortillas made out of whole wheat flour. Southern Indians eat more rice and it's white rice, but they mix it with high-fiber lentils and beans.

I was thinking that variety prompts us to eat more. My Dad eats bread for breakfast and roti/tortillas for lunch and dinner. Italians mostly eat pasta. I change it up every meal or every week. I think we eat partly out of hunger and partly out of taste. I find with "novel" foods (something I haven't eaten this week), I eat more even after I'm not hungry, out of taste. If one eats the same cuisine/ same carbs all the time, probably eating for taste is minimal. Today I finished my salad even though I was full about 2/3 of the way, because it tasted good, and the frig was overfull to put it away.

I'm surprised I haven't gained weight, I feel like I'm overeating to make up for not having the ability to snack. A lot of times I realize half an hour later that I'm overfull. It feels like a narrow window between not eating enough and eating too much. I should be able to hold out another 2 hours if I get hungry, but it's hard when I'm at work.

[oolala53]

I think Italians at home eat a lot more variety than pasta, which is often just a couple of dry ounces at one meal, but I get your point. My hotel owner in Bologna told me it's actually unusual to have bread at the same meal as pasta. Researchers have shown that people do indeed eat more with more variety, which is why we need to be a bit aware of portion sizes.

This like just about all eating habit changes is a process of discovery though as a 15-year No S veteran I would say that in the first months, it's good to try to divert the attention from the topic, as it's kind of part of diet mind. The exception would be how to thwart the justification for deviating from the plan. The "habit," which is often run from the mistaken survival drive, is going to rise up at times to see how much it takes to get us to cave, which reinforces it. I humbly suggest be tough-not nasty!- before you give in, but neutral after, if it happens. It thrives on drama...

[pinkhippie]

That narrow window is so tricky with not eating enough or eating too much and being overfull! The thing I have found that really helps is to slow my eating way down. Its super hard but I am able to recognize my fullness more quickly. Some people advise stopping in the middle of the meal and taking a break. I do that sometimes too. Work IS tricky. Almost all my "failures" happen at work.
I love variety in my food but I usually eat the same thing every day for a week, and then I switch it up the next week. So, I get variety but I get to try new recipes every week.

[RG12]

Today I’m thinking about hunger. I had a decent lunch yesterday but was hungry two hours before dinner. I was out grocery shopping so I ignored it. Got a little less hungry by the time dinner rolled around. Ate an extra piece of bread.

Today has been harder. It’s my WFH day, so food is available. I was hungry an hour after breakfast, had teax2. Ate a big bowl of salad with chicken. Hungry again. Drank more tea.

I mean, is it sugar low, gastric emptying, habit? I’m planning a walk and eat dinner in 2 hours. I’m overweight and I haven’t been dieting so the hunger kind of weird. It’s stomach rumbling, distracted by what I want to eat.

I’m also confused about plates. What size plate does R use? I ate some chili with pasta (maybe half a cup, I wanted to finish it) in a small bowl and my salad in a big bowl. I’m used to volume eating with veggies. I eat sequentially til I’m full. I could fit 3 burgers on one plate but salad is too bulky.

R also doesn’t get into the weeds of fiber, carbs, protein, fat. Just assumes we’ll figure it out.

[RG12]

Today was weird. My sister had a bday party for my nephew on Saturday. We brought home a lot of healthy leftovers but also a great cake and samosas. At the party I bribed myself to have cake if I skipped the samosas. It was hard, I had salad for breakfast and skipped lunch. There were lots of vegetables and hummus and guac, plus the samosas. Protein came out around 5:30.

So anyway I ate cake leftovers Sunday and Monday. Debated eating more cake or samosas today. Got through lunch. Planned pasta chicken, celery, papaya for dinner. Then Mom served me yogurt vada and fried cachori. Everything was small, so 5 things was not ridiculous. But I didn’t feel full, like I didn’t mentally register it all. Remembered the celery and that filled me up.

I was reading the chapter on habits. Last week at work they had these tiny desserts. I didn’t think about it, just ate the macaron, cheesecake, lemon tart, mini cupcake. Nothing really registered, no flavor or too small. The lemon tart was all crust. The funny thing is that sweets are not my weakness. Fried foods like samosas are. I was thinking I could add as a mod no fried foods: hash browns, fries, pizza, chips. It would be good to break my addiction to fried foods.

I really like R saying we react to food as a lookup table. Habit. Conscious thought doesn’t enter. For me it’s free food at work. It’s usually sweets. Or a bag of chips. But pizza also shows up. One time I brought home 20 custard tarts, ate one a day. We keep dessert at home for my mom and dad, I don’t even think about it. I know what desserts my Mom won’t eat, I inhale those.

[pinkhippie]

I notice sometimes when I am trying to eat less, my stomach will growl and gurgle, but Im not actually hungry. At least I don't think I am. Also, drinking water or even a hot drink really seems to soothe the stomach growling if you want to try it. I do notice after salad or a low fat mealI feel way more hungry a few hours later. I have read recomendations for a 9 inch plate before, but I have never tried it.

Desserts at work are hard for me too! They are always plying us with treats it seems.

[RG12]

A switch flipped and today no one in my family was hungry. My Dad ate a huge breakfast, my Mom has been eating a light lunch. But there was no apparent reason for me. I ate less this week in general, and not much on Saturday. I didn't use my S days at all!

My brother brought over pastries, my coworker gave my pastries and cake, and I still have these jumbo chocolate chip cookies.
I was thinking that if I ate 1 small pastry, 200 calories, that adds up to 6 pounds in a year (twice a week for 52 weeks). I don't even like them that much, and 5 minutes later, it's just calories in my stomach. I'm just as well off with my low-calorie tea with milk. Plus, if I eat a pastry, it's taking the place of actual nutrition. A mango and strawberries for 200 calories has fiber and vitamins, and is sweeter than that madeleine.

I was also thinking about Amy saying she has to be hyper vigilant. I've lost weight on numerous diets in the past, and like no-S, simplicity and not thinking about it works best. For 9 years, after my Mom had heart surgery, I was on a low-fat, no-sugar, low-salt diet. And it wasn't easy but after a bit it was mindless. I knew what I couldn't eat on social occasions, my school had tea and cookies every day, and for some reason I made an exception for the free Friday pizza. I was at my lowest weight for that entire time. More recently I made a diet of eggs for breakfast, beans for lunch, chicken (or other protein) for dinner. My work regularly bought pizza, fried chicken, subs - I ate a small portion. I lost 50 pounds on that, I just didn't stick with it after 3 years.

I think whatever you can stick to long term, without endless conscious effort, is where your weight will land.

[RG12]

Today I'm thinking about balance. I tend to go overboard on things, and then when they don't produce HUGE results, rebel and give up. One example is my low-fat diet; I was thin but not super skinny, and for all the food I wasn't eating, it irked me. Same with volumetric plan I went on once; I decided to eat oatmeal made with water and peaches, until it got so watery I hated it. And I hated the plan. Another example is my work related credentialling exams. I pulled out the stops, studied evenings and weekends, gave up walks, gave up social events. When I didn't pass, I said to heck with this, I'm not trying again. I always assume more is better, where sometimes balance is actually better.

That's the good thing about this diet. It doesn't say to be super strict all the time, weekends and S days are frequent. Other diets advocate a cheat day once a week. Having foregone my S days this weekend, and watching my calorie intake drop, I feel myself going overboard again. My coworker is throwing a retirement party this week, and there are 2 (actually 3, but I'm skipping one) food events at work the following week. I don't want to do weekends and all these work events too, and I enjoy the work events. I think I'm different than R, that I don't socialize that much on the weekend. So my thought is to do a mod of S days when work provides food (often leftovers from conferences show up, unplanned), and then if there was none or only one work event, take one weekend day as an S.

Now that still leaves the question of what an S day should look like. I'm mentally avoiding sweets all the time. Pizza feels like a nutritionally empty food that IS worth the calories. Ugh, I don't know, I think it's a slippery slope between never eating junk and eating it too often. Twice a week sounds too often.

[pinkhippie]

I think whatever you can stick to long term, without endless conscious effort, is where your weight will land.

I totally agree with this! This really resonates. Some good thoughts here!

The S day's are so tricky! I am pretty flexible with my S days and my work event days. I can tell you what my strategies have been if it will help. Also depressingly, I was looking back at my lowest weights and it has always always been when I was keeping track of my calories AND doing no S.

So I do eat pizza, S day or not. My family loves it, and it's around a lot. I usually have 2.5 to 3 pieces, and I eat them mindfully. Some work events are worth the treats, and some are not. My work has so many typical cupcakes and boxed and packaged treats that it's not worth it to partake. But occasionally there will be some amazing treat, and then I will. What I have done on those occasions is saved it for my lunch if it's early, or taken it home to eat with dinner.
For my weekend S days, I try to just have a sweet after a meal. Usually after dinner, occasionally after lunch and dinner, and I typically just have one serving.
Everyone is different, but that is what has helped me.

[RG12]

Thanks Pink!

I eat pizza when someone else makes it; I don't make pizza at home as often as I should/could. It's in the lookup table as a nutritionally empty food.

Last year I lost almost 30 pounds by counting calories. I'd done paleo and just wasn't ready to cut carbs again. So I ate smaller meals, no snacks, and exercised often 2 hours a day (walks). After 6 months, I was sort of done. I didn't have the time to walk that much, plus it was the worst of summer, and I don't like the treadmill. My bloodwork was okay, and hopefully hasn't gotten worse in the year. I didn't care that much, I think. I remember asking my skinny sister why she cares so much about it, and it sounded like all vanity. I have no one to impress any more.

I'm not sure why, I think no-S has helped me flip that switch. Now I would like to be thin (I've been thin before), both for vanity and health. Better bloodwork and walking faster. But more, the opposite side of the equation has changed. Sweets and snacks are just not that great. Getting through 5 days at a time without them has proven to me that I can. Especially during stressful work weeks. I thought I needed a ton of calories to function mentally, but I don't! Plus the foodie in me was rebelling at cutting out certain yummy foods. I recently made a list of yummy, healthy reward foods, things that are either expensive or time-consuming to make. I asked my brother to make me ribs on my birthday, which are not really healthy but still better than cake.

I like your idea of skipping most work desserts unless they are special. Most are ordinary. They are giving us acai bowls next week, and I will partake in that (plus it's half fruit). Still thinking about reward foods, and frequency. This is our hell week at work, and the retirement party just got cancelled, what will I eat?

A new tool I've been trying is drinking water/tea during meals, taking sips between bites. It slows me down at least. Part of me wonders if this sounds eating disordered, but it really works. I'm full when I'm done eating and for hours after.

[pinkhippie]

Wow, 2 hours a day doesn't sound sustainable for walking! At least not for my lifestyle. Im amazed you kept it up for 6 months!

acai bowls sound pretty awesome for a work snack! I think I would definitely partake!

Maybe sipping between meals is helping because some of your thirst is masquerading as hunger? Whatever it is, Im glad it works for you! I try to sip during dinner but usually forget.

[RG12]

Thanks, I used to walk for an hour during lunch, and an hour after work. I eat lunch at my desk. If you're married with kids, it helps to have family walk with you. Until about 3 years ago, my parents would walk in the evening too. I know a bunch of people on my street who walk repeatedly to walk their dogs. For me, I use my phone to avert boredom; I was watching TV, listening to my exam videos, listening to music, or watching opera. Nowadays I'm happy if I get my lunchtime walk in.

My hunger came back today, hard. I had just had a big cup of tea, some work stress came up, and I knew I was going to have to stay late. Still 2.5 hours to dinnertime. There were free donuts, cookies, chips, and the sandwich I planned for dinner. I tried to take a deep breath, calm down, and see if I could dive into the work issue. Wasn't able to completely resolve the issue, the person who was helping me quit for the day, but I made it home. Ate 3 cubes of watermelon, went for a second walk and made it to dinner. Ate a somewhat larger dinner.

Today I was thinking about the point of diminishing returns. I was saying that I tend to go overboard on things, don't get amazing results, fizzle out. Like R talks about splenda in coffee as basically immaterial vs sugar. I mean, 80 calories (more if you use a large teaspoon) is not nothing, but yeah I see the point. It takes a certain excess mental energy, to look for splenda or carry it with you. R says it makes people feel virtuous without doing much. My second hour of walking, 300 calories, probably isn't as helpful as the first. And if it makes me hungrier, it may not help at all. I was actually thinking about this more in terms of frugality; I buy milk at a store where it's .80 cents cheaper, or 20%. Sure, on the one hand thats less than $52 a year. But I have a low grocery bill because I optimize overall. They say "watch the pennies and the dollars will follow". Like my other ramblings, not sure I made a conclusion.

[pinkhippie]

A co worker and I started a walking group at work but we only usually do about 25 minutes and then walk across campus whenever there is an event. Walking for an hour at work is impressive!

Work stress is so hard! Good for you for not diving into the donuts and cookies! I honestly don't know if I could have resisted that. Work stress is one of my hardest challenges.

interesting thoughts about diminishing returns. I also tend to go hard on things and then fizzle out. Im trying very hard not to, especially with exercise. I always get injured if I do that with exercise too. I think that is the appeal of No S, is that its structure allows for going easy if you want to.

[RG12]

Oof, long two days. Work was hard, we'd been saying how well the week was going, but the person who was to help me just sort of forgot about me for a day and a half. In retrospect I could have moved forward while I was waiting, but I didn't. So now I have to put in a day of work on the weekend.

Thursday was my first S day in 9 days. I hadn't planned anything special, and ended up eating some cake and apple phyllo a coworker left on my desk. The cake was too sweet, all sugar. And the phyllo was very mild, almost no filling, airy. Afterwards I thought I'd rather have pizza or popcorn. I don't know why I do this, but I took 3 of the leftover donuts and stashed them in the freezer for a snack emergency. I've done this before, they taste pretty good right out of the freezer.

I was also very full, ate lunch 3 hours late, dinner somewhat late. It felt weird to be that full, even though it used to be normal. Then for dinner I finished off a sweet no one had wanted, and a small bag of chips. Fortunately, I also walked a bit while waiting on my coworker, just laps around the building in case she texted. That's another one of my diminishing returns things: Every time I get coffee or toast my bagel, while it's brewing, I do a 3 minute lap around the inside of the building. My fitbit says it's about 1.6 miles over the day. Mostly, it helps clear my head.

Today was very long, worked through lunch, went grocery shopping after work, hit traffic (unusual), put dinner on the table and cut up some fruit, went for a quick walk, finished putting groceries away, and finally wound down at 9:30. It was a no-S day, and I did okay not eating despite the stress. I feel like I'm learning to take work stress in stride, just keep plugging away rather than freak out how behind I am. Before, every minor obstacle would have me eating something.

I'm taking the weekend and Monday as no-S and then Tue-Thu there will be work lunches, so I don't commit to no-S but will try taking dessert home. Thu is acai bowls; they're actually letting us get two, one for lunch and one for dessert. I don't like the lunch options (hot dogs and grilled cheese), so I might eat one bowl and freeze the other one.

[RG12]

Hi, I just sipped water while eating lunch and was too full for cherries! This idea came to me from reading the Volumetric Plan years ago. Basically it says that the volume of food fills you up, not calories. So good to eat fruits and veg. And she says to add water to your meals, like soup. I don't like my food to be soupy, but I can try drinking something (tea or kombucha usually) in between bites of food. She actually says this shouldn't work, water has to be incorporated into your food rather than drank with it, but the study was small and didn't test this specifically.

I was reading Ellis's journal about a blip in her eye exam. That is scary! I stopped drinking alcohol 10 years ago, and it was for a similar concern. The doctor didn't specifically say that caused it, but I had a feeling. I had a professor in grad school, Professor Pirate, who had lost an eye and eventually two legs to type-1 diabetes. My parents have type-2 and have been on medication for 40 years. It runs in my family, but I am hoping to avoid it one more year. At least medications are a lot better than they used to be. But, yeah, eye problems are a huge motivation to get my diet in control.

[RG12]

I'm down a pound today. Which is great, but that makes two pounds in 6 weeks, too slow. I'm used to dieting where the first week I lose 2-3 pounds right away. I know it's just water weight, but it feels motivating. I do feel like I should be eating less, but it wasn't the week for it.

R talks about food logging as flogging. I don't remember when I started, but I've been flogging for decades. My phone has a log for the last 3 years. I list what I ate, approx calories in and exercise calories out. When I was losing 2 pounds a week, I was eating 1200 calories and exercising 400. I'm not sure I'm ready to drop calories that low just right now. I was maintaining on 1700 calories, and lost 1 pound on 1400. To drop calories I have to eat smaller meals or 2 meals instead of 3. I think in the past I've cut way back on fruit, which I love. But everything was on sale this weekend, so we have mangos, peaches, cherries, blueberries, watermelon, Korean melon, lychees and guavas. I eat fruit with most meals, it's just that time of year. To eat smaller meals, I'd probably need to cut carbs. Open faced sandwiches. The other thing I could do is really tone down S-days.

I was re-reading the book, and R says stress eating or emotional eating seems like comfort but is actually self-punishment. He also says food only lasts a few minutes. When I eat food, it fills the stress hunger in my stomach for a few hours. I wish he explained the punishment idea more, other than eating food you don't need makes you fat.

[RG12]

Yesterday was the first of 3 work events this week. A retiring coworker threw herself a lunch. I had 2 pieces of pizza, salad, fruit, and 2 chocolate covered strawberries. I skipped the heavier cake, cheesecake, and brownie. It was still more than a normal meal, so I'm calling it a Yellow, S-day. I skipped breakfast and ate some cabbage for dinner. Pizza is very heavy, not sure how pink eats 2.5-3 slices normally.

Today was the second of 3 work events. Like last week, it was a Panera box with a (double) sandwich, chips, and (huge) cookie. The sandwich has 900 calories, chips 150, cookie 400. A lot of people ate the whole thing. I ate half sandwich for lunch, with some cabbage and watermelon. I ate another half sandwich for dinner with squash and cherries. I skipped breakfast, and the whole day was only 100 calories less than yesterday, but more balanced. I'm calling it a no-S day. We have guests coming next week, so I'm saving 4 cookies, 4 chips for them. A lot of leftovers, I took home 4 sandwiches.

It's gotten hot suddenly, to be hotter tomorrow. I used to drink one diet Coke a day in the summer; I'm trying to cut back. I figured out I can make a cup of (herbal or green) tea with 3/4 cup of hot water, let it steep for 10 minutes, then add ice and cold water. It gives me a pleasantly flavored cold drink. The lemon ginger tea had a nice kick. I guess I could just make lemonade the same way. Or add a small amount of orange juice to cold water. We also have a ton of mint fresh and dried, with lemon would be nice. Again, I hope that's not eating disordered. I never know. I have been skipping breakfast, so I thought what if I just eat veg and fruit for breakfast all the time? I mean, it's a constant pressure to lower calories.

I was also thinking about my parents. They grew up in India, not poor but food was precious. Celebrate with food, comfort with food, eat whatever and whenever food is available. Because it was never very available. Mom talks about 2 mangos in a household of 7, and not every day. My Dad says he weighed 86 pounds when he went to college at age 16. There was no diet culture back then. If dessert showed up at 3 in the afternoon, you ate it then or it was gone if you waited til after dinner. Mom also talks about living in the mountains where there were only 3 vegetables, onions, potatoes, and onions with potatoes, ha ha, get it? They are, now, in the US, just terrible food role models. Both are overweight/obese, diabetic. Just the other day, my Mom had protein drink for lunch, then ate cake with whipped cream, then asked me to take out ice cream. I told her to eat real lunch or wait until after dinner.

Today was the third of 3 work events. I ate cabbage and yogurt for breakfast, acai bowl for lunch, lots of tea. I took some cake and cupcakes home for my parents. I also took 3 acai bowls home, and 3 (normal-sized) cookies. There is a lot of food in this office. I'll have a leftover sandwich for dinner, and back to normal tomorrow. I think the acai bowl is dessert even though it's half fruit, so S-day.

[pinkhippie]

Congrats on the 2 pounds!

Sounds like you did great at the work event! And all your fruit sounds divine! I love fruit, and find I eat less of it with 3 meals a day because it's harder to cram in.

[RG12]

Updated my 3 work events post.