Unconquered hunger beast

No Snacks, no sweets, no seconds. Except on Days that start with S. Too simple for you? Simple is why it works. Look here for questions, introductions, support, success stories.

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john
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Unconquered hunger beast

Post by john » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:24 pm

I have commented several times previously about my hunger between meals. When starting NoS I lost a considerable amount of weight rather quickly but did so by just clenching my teeth and not snacking. Honestly, my hunger between meals has never changed one iota. I have fallen "off the wagon" because I can't see myself struggling like that for the remainder of my life. I have tried your kind suggestions (larger meals, changing meal times, more protein, H2Orange etc) without relief. For the past several weeks I have been snacking between breakfast and lunch with oatmeal, the Metamucil drink later, then still later a rather large salad with soyprotein "meat". Between lunch and supper I am not quite as hungry but often eat celery with nonfat cream cheese. The frustrating thing is these snacks only slightly delay the onset of hunger.

I am hoping somebody can suggest something I have not already tried or thought of.

clarinetgal
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Post by clarinetgal » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:25 am

I actually need some help with this, too. I've added a 4th meal because I was getting so hungry in the afternoon, I was tired, irritable, and sometimes a little weak. The mini meal does help. For example, today's mini meal wasn't the best, but I had a carton of fat free Greek yogurt mixed with 1 T of ground flax and a single serving bag of Doritos. I probably should have just put some granola on top of the yogurt, but oh well.
I'm definitely curious to read other people's advice.

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jumbotights
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Post by jumbotights » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:32 am

I"m also going to follow this. I am thinking that for some people, 5 or 6 hours between meals just isn't going to work, ever. that their system is such that splitting the food up into 4 meals works better. You should never wait so long to eat that you begin feeling weak or dizzy, no matter if it's 4 hours or 6 hours. Four average size meals with no snacks or sweets may work better for some. i think that would be fine.

clarinetgal
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Post by clarinetgal » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:40 am

Thanks! So if you were to do 4 average size meals, would you suggest doing them on smaller plates? Or maybe 3 meals on a dinner plate and 1 meal on a bread plate? I counted calories for my mini meal today, but I'm thinking there's a better way to do it.

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jumbotights
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Post by jumbotights » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:01 am

clarinetgal wrote:Thanks! So if you were to do 4 average size meals, would you suggest doing them on smaller plates? Or maybe 3 meals on a dinner plate and 1 meal on a bread plate? I counted calories for my mini meal today, but I'm thinking there's a better way to do it.
Hi Clarinetgal, I think if i were to do 4 plates a day, i would aim to make them all about the same. I would aim to eat every 4 hours, and use about 25% less food on each plate than i would have eaten with 3 large meals. I think that would help keep blood sugar more level and maybe you would not have those 'starving dizzy feelings' that are so awful. that's just how i would probably do it, I'm sure there are other ways but I know that under no circumstances would i get to the point of that crappy starved feeling, no way that is sustainable longterm. I may actually give this a shot. But when fixing those meals, keep in mind that it will only be a max 4 hours till next meal time, so dont load up the plate all the way. I believe that some folks just cannot do 5 or 6 hours between meals, their physiology just does not permit it, and i think that it is just as effective to do 4 medium plates, the spirit of the plan is still there, in my opinion anyhow. Still no sweets, snacks or seconds!

clarinetgal
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Post by clarinetgal » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:20 am

Jumbotights, That makes sense! I may give that a try. I know for me, even going for 5 hours without eating is pushing it, and 6 hours is REALLY pushing it. Anything beyond 6, and that's when I really run into problems. So I think starting on Monday, I'll experiment with this way of eating and see if I can get it to work for me. :)

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Blithe Morning
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Post by Blithe Morning » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:07 pm

If you are consistently experiencing extreme hunger after all this time, I think it's time to see a doctor and get your blood sugar checked. If you are eating decent sized portions made up of a variety of food (protein, complex carbs, fats) and staying hydrated, then I think it's time to rule out an underlying medical condition.

wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:44 pm

jumbotights wrote:
clarinetgal wrote:Thanks! So if you were to do 4 average size meals, would you suggest doing them on smaller plates? Or maybe 3 meals on a dinner plate and 1 meal on a bread plate? I counted calories for my mini meal today, but I'm thinking there's a better way to do it.
Hi Clarinetgal, I think if i were to do 4 plates a day, i would aim to make them all about the same. I would aim to eat every 4 hours, and use about 25% less food on each plate than i would have eaten with 3 large meals. I think that would help keep blood sugar more level and maybe you would not have those 'starving dizzy feelings' that are so awful. that's just how i would probably do it, I'm sure there are other ways but I know that under no circumstances would i get to the point of that crappy starved feeling, no way that is sustainable longterm. I may actually give this a shot. But when fixing those meals, keep in mind that it will only be a max 4 hours till next meal time, so dont load up the plate all the way. I believe that some folks just cannot do 5 or 6 hours between meals, their physiology just does not permit it, and i think that it is just as effective to do 4 medium plates, the spirit of the plan is still there, in my opinion anyhow. Still no sweets, snacks or seconds!
I'd vary the plate sizes according to the meal. For me, breakfast and late afternoon would be smaller; lunch and dinner larger. I'd not worry about it too much, actually.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

StrawberryRoan
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Post by StrawberryRoan » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:30 pm

Barring a serious medical condition, I think the bigger problem is that people think hunger is a bad thing.

Hunger is a good thing. It is a signal that the body is burning up, not storing as excess fat, the food we have eaten.

People used to be really hungry at mealtimes. That was the idea.

Today, people are really hungry all the time.

Unless one is passing out from weakness due to hypoglycemia or something, I would embrace the hunger as success that the plan is working to retrain our bodies to eat when they need fuel not when they need distraction.

:roll:

wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:08 pm

I just reread John's and Clarinetgirl's posts and I can't believe I'm going to say this, but, are you eating enough FAT? We've been fat-phobic for the last 30-40 years, but fat is necessary in the diet. Among other things, along with protein and fiber it helps you feel full/satisfied.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

Sara R
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Post by Sara R » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:15 pm

I agree with wosnes. Some good fat is necessary in the diet. I think this is one reason why kids "need" to snack now when they didn't 40 years ago. Kids' diets had more fat in them back then, and so it was easier to wait until the next meal.

wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:57 pm

wosnes wrote:
jumbotights wrote:
clarinetgal wrote:Thanks! So if you were to do 4 average size meals, would you suggest doing them on smaller plates? Or maybe 3 meals on a dinner plate and 1 meal on a bread plate? I counted calories for my mini meal today, but I'm thinking there's a better way to do it.
Hi Clarinetgal, I think if i were to do 4 plates a day, i would aim to make them all about the same. I would aim to eat every 4 hours, and use about 25% less food on each plate than i would have eaten with 3 large meals. I think that would help keep blood sugar more level and maybe you would not have those 'starving dizzy feelings' that are so awful. that's just how i would probably do it, I'm sure there are other ways but I know that under no circumstances would i get to the point of that crappy starved feeling, no way that is sustainable longterm. I may actually give this a shot. But when fixing those meals, keep in mind that it will only be a max 4 hours till next meal time, so dont load up the plate all the way. I believe that some folks just cannot do 5 or 6 hours between meals, their physiology just does not permit it, and i think that it is just as effective to do 4 medium plates, the spirit of the plan is still there, in my opinion anyhow. Still no sweets, snacks or seconds!
I'd vary the plate sizes according to the meal. For me, breakfast and late afternoon would be smaller; lunch and dinner larger. I'd not worry about it too much, actually.
I was thinking about this...I use a dinner plate all the time. What varies is the amount of food I put on it.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

clarinetgal
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Post by clarinetgal » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:58 am

Wosnes, I think that's exactly what I need -- more fat. I spent the latter part of my childhood eating a lowfat diet because my Dad was diagnosed with MS, and he was told a lowfat diet would be the best diet for him. He still eats that way, and he's had MS for almost 20 years, and is not in a wheelchair, so it must be working for him. Anyway, low fat diets definitely do NOT work for me. While growing up with this diet, I rarely felt satisfied after I ate, and I did a lot of extra snacking to feel full. Luckily, my metabolism was good enough so that I was never overweight.
This is my long way of saying that I think my childhood experience engrained the lowfat diet into me, so I have to really work to add more fat into my diet. I'm going to experiment with making my own full fat salad dressings (thank you to all of the people who shared their recipes), and I think I may add a small serving of nuts with my meals.

reitschule
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Post by reitschule » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:12 pm

I think you are underestimating your ability to adapt to hunger.

One of the most important realizations to have before beginning a weight loss program is that your body IS going to complain about this to some degree. In order to lose weight, you have to intake less food energy than what you are expending. There are ways to shape the frequency duration and intensity of the hunger pangs, but it just doesn't make any sense to hope to lose weight without feeling them at all.

Think about it from an evolutionary (mythological) perspective. Your body desires food, so you have hunger pangs. This is a reminder to get off your butt and go foraging in the bush or hunting large ungulates. That's what a hunger pang is. If you are afraid that hunger is going to make you lethargic and weak, that's largely an illusion. It wouldn't make sense. It's a trick your body is using to give you a hard time about cutting its food supply. It's not real weakness, or you wouldn't be able to respond to it by securing food in the days before a refrigerator in the next room.

Now all that said, I'm not a doctor. If you're feeling legitimately dizzy, you should go and see one. If you're feeling a little cranky, tough it out.

burnnotice
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Post by burnnotice » Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:57 pm

Hi John,

I'd speak to your physician about your hunger level. I recommend keeping a food journal for a week or two for him/her to review with you. I'd also log your hunger level before you eat each time. Your hunger level sounds very high despite mini-meal intervention (if I am reading your post correctly). A hunger that does not abate or an appetite that doesn't regulate to a diet or eating pattern might be a sign of a medical issue.

Best wishes & patience and you work on this issue!

Colleen
Me
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wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:56 pm

I noticed that both John and clarinetgal mentioned various fat-free foods and highly processed foods (Doritos and soy meat). You might want to read this:

http://everydaysystems.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=4574
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

TunaFishKid
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Post by TunaFishKid » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:52 am

There are several things that could be to blame here...

First, the time between meals. There's another thread about eating breakfast later, making it easier to make it from meal to meal. It's here -http://everydaysystems.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=5494

Second, you might just be underestimating how much you need to eat at each meal. You might be trying to limit the amount of food you put on your plate. Don't. After a couple of weeks of NoS, you'll have a pretty good idea of just how much you need to eat and you will be able to adjust accordingly.

Third, you have to train your body in the beginning. In the book, Reinhard says your body will learn to live within the parameters of three meals a day. I can't find the quote right now because it's almost midnight and I'm tired, lol, but tomorrow I will look it up.

And fourth, you may just not be used to feeling hunger. Most of us eat constantly and really don't know what hunger feels like. Take it from me, it feels great! It lets you know it's time to eat, and it also lets you know exactly what you want. If I look in the fridge and nothing looks good I know I'm not really hungry...more likely bored or thirsty.
~ Laura ~

clarinetgal
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Post by clarinetgal » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:06 am

Wosnes, Very interesting! I think that may actually be my problem, too many processed foods. I'm finding that what I eat has continued to evolve, since I started No S. For example, I haven't had a frozen meal in at least a couple of weeks. Most of my meals contain whole, natural foods now. I do allow myself certain indulgences, such as a single serving of chips with my lunch, but overall, I am eating much, much healthier now.
It's definitely made a difference with my hunger. In fact, I did an experiment today to see how long I could go between meals before I felt truly hungry. My breakfast was pretty small since I ate a huge fish and chips dinner yesterday (S day), and I ate it at around 7 AM. My stomach didn't start growling until after 12 PM. I finished lunch at about 12:30 PM, and I didn't start to feel really hungry until after 6 PM. I didn't eat dinner until after 7 because it was a crazy day, and I actually did go beyond my limits to the point where I was feeling tired and irritable. I now know, however, that I can definitely go about 6 hours before I reach that point, so I should definitely be able to eat 3 meals.

wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:17 am

clarinetgal wrote: I do allow myself certain indulgences, such as a single serving of chips with my lunch, but overall, I am eating much, much healthier now.
I occasionally have chips at lunch, too. Chips -- real chips made only with potatoes,oil and salt -- aren't nearly as bad as other snack foods that have numerous chemical ingredients. They're certainly not an ideal food, but not quite as bad as others.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

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NoelFigart
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Post by NoelFigart » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:15 pm

TunaFishKid wrote:Second, you might just be underestimating how much you need to eat at each meal.

So very right.

We're used to eating, say, a package of instant oatmeal for breakfast. If you're only eating three times a day, that's not close to enough!

While we're certainly not supposed to be calorie counting, if you're eating 1500 calories a day, you really should be eating 3 500 calorie meals pretty evenly spaced throughout the day.

On saying that? I ate a huge breakfast this morning: Steel cut oats, two boiled eggs, and handful of strawberries. That's actually fewer than 400 calories, but I'm full and it'll carry me perfectly comfortably till lunch, so obviously I need a bit less.
------
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Post by Nichole » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:39 pm

((OT - glad to see you posting again, Noel!))

And to comment on the processed foods thing.. I haven't eaten a frozen prepared meal since May and it has been the best thing ever! I think it definitely helped me lose weight b/c I'm eating more satisfying meals and meals with a lot less sodium. I do eat some processed foods every day (Sargento cheese, yogurt), but overall my food is mostly whole food, which has made a great change in eating.
"Anyone can cook." ~ Chef Gusteau, Ratatouille

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FarmerHal
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Post by FarmerHal » Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:04 pm

Hi John,
I hit a period of a couple YEARS where I struggled with losing weight (while following noS and falling off the wagon numerous times) and struggled with hunger.

I recently married both noS principles and those of the Paleo diet (google that). I have insulin resistance (hyperinsulinism) which mean that when I eat a carb/sugar i put out too much insulin and my cells become resistant to letting insulin in. I also have a skin disorder from the IR that is called Acanthosis Nigricans (AN) I get dark patches of skin from excess insulin that gets deposited there.

I read the book, I changed my diet, I eat good proteins (don't avoid the fat, really) I eat lots of veggies both cooked and raw (salads), fruits, nuts, seeds and very little dairy. No potatoes, no grain.
I even reserve my S's (sweets) to the very special occasions such as birthdays and holidays.

John, I've lost 14lbs now in just over 3 weeks just by changing my diet.
I am NOT hungry, though i eat loads of veggies at nearly every meal.

I don't want to sound like a fanatic or anything but this has been a major eye-opener for me, as a bonus, I'm not hungry all day AND the skin condition is 90% cleared up!

Worth looking into trying anyway, good luck!
{FarmerHal} ...previously Shamrockmommy...
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wintry
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Post by wintry » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:12 am

Oh totally. Nothing makes me hungry faster than eating refined carbs, not even not-eating :lol:

Thing about hunger is... there are some cats you can just leave on their own for the weekend with a bowl of cat food and they'll eat the right amount each day, and yet I know some other delightful, intelligent cats who spend their entire lives in a state of insatiable hunger, why should humans be any different? Well dieting may suck but it beats having an owner :lol:

CrazyCatLady
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Post by CrazyCatLady » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:35 pm

I can see how celery with non-fat cream cheese would not be too good at fending off real hunger!

I would suggest a glass of whole milk between meals. It is liquid, so allowed. It adds protein and fat, and it healthy. It may be enough to really satisfy your hunger.

Another suggestion is to track your intake at Sparkpeople so you can see what your calorie intake is...maybe it is lower than you think. Or post what you have eaten for 3-4 days here....so many people here are good at tweaking menu plans!

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DaveMc
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Post by DaveMc » Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:38 pm

Hi, I just wanted to ask how things are going, and to second Blithe and others with the recommendation that you seek medical advice from a doctor. If you're still struggling with extreme hunger between meals after a couple of months of an honest implementation of NoS, then your reaction to this style of eating is not typical. Most people find that their hunger drops to manageable levels pretty quickly, and they find themselves pleasantly anticipating the next meal but not feeling like they're going to starve.

Bear in mind that "not typical" means exactly what it says: your reaction is different than what the typical person experiences (as you've no doubt seen, if you've browsed the posts here). It doesn't mean that you're a bad person, or that you're doing something wrong. I think Blithe is exactly right to suggest that you should talk to a medical professional, who may be able to give you helpful advice, and maybe run some tests (like blood sugar levels). If the problem is an emotional one, rather than strictly physiological (not that those two are unrelated) ... well, a doctor may have helpful advice to offer on that front, too.

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