I think it's OK to be an idiot on non N Days!

No Snacks, no sweets, no seconds. Except on Days that start with S. Too simple for you? Simple is why it works. Look here for questions, introductions, support, success stories.

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Kathleen
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I think it's OK to be an idiot on non N Days!

Post by Kathleen » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:51 pm

I think it's human nature to push the limit. I have a nine year old who tries again and again to push the limit. My conclusion is to accept my human nature of wanting to push the limit and just set a firm limit of two exception days per month to be used however I want. This is in addition to Saturday and Sunday. It works for me. The beauty of this is that I don't have to worry about a failure until I've used all my saved exception days. I now have four after using one for today.

As for being an idiot, I'd say I don't mind following the letter of this diet and totally violating the spirit. I once ate two Haagen Dazs bars in the van on the 10 minute drive home from the grocery store. I also was in the kitchen one Friday night with a Haagen Dazs bar unwrapped waiting for the digital clock to register midnight. So what... I follow the letter of the law and don't worry about being an idiot.

I'm hoping to be below 200 pounds by early April because we're spending a night at a water park to celebrate! I bought a very nice black swimsuit for myself to have by then. I started in September at 215 pounds and got as low as 201.4 last Saturday morning. It will be a long time before I'm comfortable in a swimsuit, but I'll be a lot more comfortable this summer in an expensive black swimsuit with swim shorts than I was in the ghastly old lady swimsuit I've worn the last two years. With the amount of weight I have to lose, I don't want this diet to be the focus of my life all the time I'm losing weight but instead want it to be a habit every bit as entrenched as washing my hands after using the bathroom. Perfect compliance gives me that because I don't care if I'm being an idiot or not. I'm following the letter of the diet and not worrying about the spirit of it.

Kathleen

kccc
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Post by kccc » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:16 am

Kathleen, I think it's psychologically VERY important to have the level of freedom on S-days that you need, whatever that is.

(From here on, all "you's" are "you in general," not "you personally.")

For most of us, the letter of the law is good enough. Certainly it is during the habit-building stage. And for anyone with a lot to lose, simply keeping N-days will keep the trajectory in the right direction even if the S-days are pretty over the top.

By the time that idiotic S-days actually become a weight issue (and as you approach goal weight, alas, they can start having a noticeable effect), your definition of idiotic will probably have shifted as well.

I consider tonight (S-day for me) a pretty idiotic evening. In fact, I feel a little ill from eating leftover Valentine's candy. But I also know that tonight's consumption wouldn't have REGISTERED in the bad old days. While it's still an idiotic day, it's a different level of idiotic. That's happened naturally, over time. Also, I don't have idiotic S-days as often as I used to. Still, I do have them...and I have learned to shrug them off. In the grand scheme of things - a nice progression of green N-days - they just don't matter. I actually PREFER non-idiotic S-days these days, with a wonderful indulgence to complement my normal regular meals. But sometimes, I seem to need to be an idiot. So I am.

S-days like this remind me why I LIKE the structure of N-days. Without them, I couldn't manage N-days as well as I do. I need the freedom to be a little idiotic so I know that I can, so I remember what idiotic feels like, and so I know it's not the end of the world - or No-S - just because I'm idiotic on an S-day.

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:23 am

Yes, idiotic S Days are self-correcting!

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Post by kccc » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:28 am

Kathleen wrote:Yes, idiotic S Days are self-correcting!
That one should go on the quote list! :)

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:12 pm

KCCC,

Last weekend, we bought a jar of caramel macademian clusters. I looked at the empty jar the next day. There were 23 servings of 2 pieces each at a caloric level of about 230 calories per serving. Calculate that out, and the jar contained about 5,000 calories. I had at least 3,000 calories last weekend of caramel macademian clusters. My weight didn't go below last Saturday's low of 201.4, but that's OK by me. I am sensing that this is my body's way to adjust to a lower set point. To really overeat and be OK with it is reassurance after my years of always about to go on a diet, being on a diet, or out of control eating after a diet. As for declaring your hamster's birthday an S Day, I've opted to limit weekday non N Days to two per month, and I can use them whenever I want and for whatever reason I want.

I've been on this diet now almost six months and, as of last Saturday, was down just over 13 pounds. If I manage to be down 25 pounds by the 1 year mark in September (down to 190), I would be very happy with those results. The tempation is always to try to cut back on S Days, but I think that the result is that you have failures on N Days. I had a failure on Day 1, a failure on Day 2, a failure on Day 3, a failure on Day 4, and no failures since then, and I think that my 100% success comes from two things -- "unconditional permission to eat" on non N Days, and allowing myself to accumulate two non N weekdays per month to be used however I want.

The diet is getting a lot easier. The question is whether I can continue to lose weight. Obviously, I can't be having 3,000 calories of caramel macademian clusters every weekend if I want to lose weight. I am allowing myself to repeat last week's performance. The reason why I think I will lose weight is that I don't want to have one caramel macademian cluster this weekend. Not one. My stomach just did a flip flop because I was thinking about putting one caramel macademian cluster into my mouth.

Idiotic S Days are self-correcting.

Kathleen

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Post by LoriLifts » Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:06 pm

I am also in the "it's ok to be an idiot on no s day" camp.
I don't have any rules on s days. I can eat 3 meals or I can graze. I can eat whatever I want whenever I want.
I can eat a brownie for breakfast! (ok, that might be going to far, I use this to make my point).
Anyway, I have found that when I allow myself anything I want, what I want isn't so bad. Heck, sometimes it's even healthful!
For instance, this morning, I had 1 cranberry scone (I could have had 8 if I were so inclined) and a small bowl of fruit. It's what I wanted.
Tonight I'm going to have pasta with (gasp!) a salad. It's what I'm craving.
And I'll thoroughly enjoy dessert after dinner.
And maybe I'll have seconds if I want it.
Maybe tomorrow I'll be an idiot.
All I know for sure is that I'll be a non snacker, no seconds or sweets eater on Monday.
That's good enough for me.
Habits are at first cobwebs, then cables.

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reinhard
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Post by reinhard » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:27 pm

Thanks, Kathleen, for starting this amusing (and helpful!) thread.

I'll have to add a link to this from the "don't be an idiot" section on the home page :-)

Here's how I see it: dangers tend come in opposing pairs, like the monsters "Scylla and Charibdis" that Odysseus had to sail between. It is dangerous to be an idiot. It is also dangerous to worry too much about being an idiot. Which is the more dangerous? Hard to say -- my guess is the one you don't see.

Reinhard

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:32 pm

Reinhard,

That may be right. For those of us who have spent decades calorie counting or point counting, the freedom of being an idiot on S Days can be important. I don't think I'm going to go through another (approximately) 3,000 calorie caramel macademian cluster weekend!

I like to think of this diet in terms of Aristotle's mean between the extremes of "unconditional permission to eat" (Intuitive Eating) and conventional diets (count everything every day and stay below some calculated amount). What's interesting to me about this approach is that many religions have some aspect of this approach of some regulation of eating at certain times and unconditional permission to eat at other times. Today is Mardi Gras, a Catholic tradition that is fading because the rules of fasting have been watered down so much. When I was a child, we enjoyed Mardi Gras, and I remember in particular having German doughnuts that were for the day before Lent began.

Aristotle also has a concept of virtue being a matter of habit. What I like about this diet is that you can get into the habit of no snacks, sweets, or seconds on weekdays. It's easy for me to have one habit on weekdays and another on weekends because my routine is different on weekdays.

The reason why I don't like the idea of failure is that I think it can change your perception of having a habit. After all, I'm doing the exact same thing as people who mark their days as failures. My perception of what I am doing is different, though. I see myself as having a 100% success rate because I have accumulating 2 Exception Days per month to be used however I want.

Great diet. I am probably not the first to reread Aristotle's Ethics to try to figure out how to lose weight. I reread it last spring and learned about your diet in the fall. It was a kind of Eureka moment when I saw how this diet could become a habit in a way that most others cannot.

Kathleen

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reinhard
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Post by reinhard » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:01 pm

Kathleen,

It's interesting you mention Aristotle... I've been thinking more and more about him lately (he's now got a mention on the everyday systems home page). I love his emphasis on moderation and "virtue as habit." I haven't yet read his Ethics in their entirety, but I listened to an excellent teaching company course on the subject, and am working up the nerve to plunge into the audiobook (Nadia May sounds like a great reader from the sample).
The reason why I don't like the idea of failure is that I think it can change your perception of having a habit. After all, I'm doing the exact same thing as people who mark their days as failures. My perception of what I am doing is different, though. I see myself as having a 100% success rate because I have accumulating 2 Exception Days per month to be used however I want.
I see your point -- it makes a lot of sense. But I find giving myself a "red" on those occasions when I don't do what I set out to do keeps me on my toes. That being said, I agree that it's good to try to structure your criteria for success so that those reds are very rare -- and mine are.

Reinhard

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:41 am

Reinhard,

Can you believe it -- I got Koterski's tapes from the library and liked them so much that I bought myself a copy from Amazon. I am listening to them now as I do laundry. He talks about "autonomism" habits -- habits that have been practiced with such regularity that they become routine. That's what N Day habits are for me now. The positive aspect of "S Days Gone Wild" for me is that they could never become a habit IF -- and I emphasize IF -- two S Days are followed by five N Days. With Intuitive Eating, I had six months of S Days and gained 10 pounds. In contrast, with this diet, I just cannot adjust rapidly from moderate eating for five days to over the top eating for two days. I did not feel real great after 3,000 calories of caramel macademian clusters. The N Day habits, practiced with vigilence, carry over into S Days and dampen S Day enthusiastic indulgence -- or so that is my theory.

As for giving yourself a red, I see that as a frontal assault on the self-perception of N Day habits as being "second nature." I had one breath mint one day in January and took an Exception Day. Of course, I enjoyed some sweets later, too, but one mint turned the day not into a failure but instead into an Exception Day. Limiting the number of Exception Days to an accumulation of two per month prevents every day from becoming an Exception Day.


Kathleen

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Post by Kathleen » Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:19 pm

I dropped below 200 pounds today (199.6) for the first time since after having four surgeries and staying in the hospital for a week in August and September, 2007. That weight loss was temporary. This is permanent. (I'm fine. The good doctors at the Mayo Clinic took care of me.)

With most diets, there is the painful memory of how you feel when you are on a diet. With this diet, there can be painful memories of S Days. My 3,000 calorie caramel macademian cluster day two weeks ago is etched in my memory. I needed to know that I would allow myself to have that much food. Now that I know that, I don't want to repeat eating so much.

Two of my kids and I made an "S Day run" this morning to a local grocery store. What I've done with the kids is keep sweets out of the house during the week, and there is a treat run on Saturday morning. We cannot allow over the top eating in the morning because of soccer at 10:30, but they each get a treat.

A couple of weeks ago, my oldest daughter, as she was wolfing down a Bismark, remarked, "The S Day Diet has its advantages!" Yes, it does. You can enjoy your food.

Kathleen

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Awesome!

Post by la_loser » Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:09 pm

Congratulations on dropping below the big 200. That is huge (pardon the pun!)

Now enjoy your S day and don't get back on the scale for a few days!

Best wishes.
LA Loser. . . well on my way to becoming an LA Winner. :lol:

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Post by kccc » Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:17 pm

Congrats, Kathleen! :)

I do think the freedom to actually ENJOY food on S-days is one of the big benefits. Food tastes so much better without a side order of guilt!

The nice thing about the WOE is that it's really, truly sustainable.

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:43 pm

La_Loser and KCCC,

Thanks for the congratulations! I'll step on the scale tomorrow, and I expect I'll see 200 but that's OK! It will be interesting to see when will be the last time the scale shows 200. It may well be a few months!

I dropped so much this week because of Lent -- a fast on Wednesday and a light dinner last night. Last night's dinner was a Lenten soup supper so I had a piece of bread and bowl of cream of broccoli soup for dinner.

Side order of guilt. Ha! Ha! Ha! I got up at 1 AM and had a Snickers bar. This morning, I've had a Haagen Dazs bar, some chocolate and Twizzlers. I have not had one caramel macademian cluster!

Kathleen

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Post by gratefuldeb67 » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:13 am

Congratulations Kathleen!!!
That's great news :)
Good for you, you hard work is definitely paying off!!
8) Debs
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Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:54 pm

Thanks, Debs. It was very gratifying to see a weight below 200 pounds. I knew it would bounce back, and it did, but I am confident I will see it again and someday I will never see above 200 pounds again. I was hoping to lose 10% of my body weight by my one year anniversary on this diet (down to 193 by September 8, 2009), and I think I'll make it!
Kathleen

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Post by reinhard » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:49 pm

Can you believe it -- I got Koterski's tapes from the library and liked them so much that I bought myself a copy from Amazon
I'm very happy to hear this! He is good -- I don't think I'd seriously be considering plunging into the Ethics itself without the foundation I got from those lectures.
I dropped below 200 pounds today
Congratulations! That's fantastic news.
As for giving yourself a red, I see that as a frontal assault on the self-perception of N Day habits as being "second nature."
I think your mod is clearly working very well for you, and I'm glad you posted it here because I think it also might also work well for others, but I do think that failure aka "red" is a helpful concept to keep around for most people (including myself).

Here's why: not everyone is as good at budgeting floating S-days as you. And not everyone is going to be able to stop at a mint. I think that if S-days can be easily granted (merely by slipping up) there will be little disincentive for many people to simply take those immediately and to the hilt -- and then find themselves confronted with genuine s-days that they can't (realistically) not take.

If they give themselves a "red" for an actual holiday, well, that just seems wrong. They're marking what should be a legitimate S-day, what their society, culture, or faith tells them is a legitimate holiday, as a failure, while marking the previous, dubious S-days when they just broke down because they wanted something as OK. The consciousness of failure (or "chromatic disincentive," if you prefer) is associated with the wrong event. The accounting is mixed up, and whatever Pavlovian feedback you're getting is hitting the wrong behavior.

There's something Grinch-like about a system that is going to make Christmas a failure -- because of something you did three weeks before. And if you "succeed" in this situation and actually don't take Christmas as an S-day, well, I can't imagine you're going to remain fond of this diet for very long. I'm sure YOU would never let it come to such a catch-22, but I think a great many other people might.

Also, if the cost of a tic tac is "red," people will think very hard about whether that tic tac is worth it. A mere yellow doesn't seem too bad -- until you're out of yellow, of course. At that point, the "delayed" first red might actually represent three failures, and might be very difficult to recover from, in terms of morale. You'd feel like one of these banks where the balance sheet losses are just the tip of the iceberg. If you never get to this point, there's no problem. But I think most people would.

Lastly, holidays are (usually) clearly distinct from ordinary days. Running tally S-days are less clearly distinct. I think most people will find sticking with "objective," externally recognized S-days more obvious and habit friendly.

Again, I'm not trying to convince you to abandon or stop singing the praises of a mod that is clearly working so well for you, just to explain why I still think the full spectrum habit traffic light is (for me and many/most other people) a good idea.

Reinhard

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:45 am

Reinhard,

I got a chuckle out of your explanation. My 9 year old was on the "S Day Diet" on Saturdays and when she had enough S Days to take an S Day. I tried explaining to her the concept of budgeting S Days for when she really wanted to take them -- and what turned out was she wanted to use them as soon as she had them. She's now on the no-sweets-during-the-week-at-home-because-there-aren't-any diet!

As for me, I completely disassociated the specialness of a day from whether or not you followed N Day rules. This happened in early January when I stopped calling NWS Days "Special Days" and called them "Exception Days". It happened on a day when I had bad breath from drinking all the Caribou Coffee provided free of charge feet from my cube, and I used a Special Day to buy some breath mints. Nothing special about the day for that reason, but it was well worth using up one of my budgeted Special Days. It happened to be the First Confession of our youngest child, and I was telling our kids I had made it a Special Day because I needed breath mints, and our youngest said it was already a Special Day. True, we did go out for dinner that night, but I would have followed N Day rules if I hadn't wanted breath mints so badly that I used an allotment of Special Days.

It's a different approach. People are different. This approach works well for me and could for others. For me, it makes the habit even more ingrained. At a Holloween event at a local grocery store, my kids were having fun, and there were lots of treats. What caught my eye as being worth an S Day use was specialty (mocha) coffee being offered by Caribou Coffee in little sample cups. I almost used an S Day for that but then decided -- heck, if I am going to use an S Day, I'm going to order a large!

What I like about this approach is being able to use an Exception Day without having to justify it because the day is somehow special. My 8 year old's birthday was Valentine's Day, so I didn't use an Exception Day for that, but I did use an Exception Day for her birthday party. I was very nervous about it all working out because she wanted to go snow tubing and we were dependent on the weather. It worked out fine, and I enjoyed her cake for her party. I didn't need to tell myself that I could only take her actual birthday as a Special Day. I didn't need to justify the decision to myself at all.

Right now, I'm building a balance of Exception Days (I'm up to 6 as of right now) because our three other kids have birthdays by mid-May, and I'll need Exception Days for those. One of the nice things about this diet is it is making me realize how many times we celebrate with food, but the vast majority of those celebrations occur on the weekend. I only track Exception Days which occur during the week.

This diet is so so easy. I've put far more effort into other diets, with regrettable results.

I look forward to posting a 10% weight loss. That would have me at or below 193. I hope to get there by 1 year on this diet, which would be in September. I may even make it an Exception Day and go to Caribou Coffee and have some really yummy coffee. I've been tempted to call this diet "The Glutton's Diet"!

Kathleen

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